Weekly Scrap #342 - Mark vonAppen, Leading, Mentoring, and the Future!

Speaker 1: Fun boat gang never do complain They rock up front A merry bunch of cunts And we love them everyone After party roast always a joke, no one brings it and that's okay because we love them all the s Set front row, front row, crack up here, lend your ear, it's that time for the scrap again Corley: I get asked all the time, what is a vigilante? What does it mean to be a vigilante? And so to explain that, I'm just gonna kind of explain where the vigilantes came from. When I started the group. I honestly thought there was going to be like 10 or 20 people who really like the scrap that would want to be part of the behind the scenes helping pick out the guests and make the questions and things and I never dreamed that the vigilantes would grow into what it has grown into. Over 700 like-minded souls. If you're a vigilante, you are never alone. We have members from across the country. We have members from across the globe. And it's just amazing what it's become. If you're in there, then you get to be in the Discord and the Discord is where we do all of our discussions and people go live and they talk and they ask questions and we have a channel for bitching and moaning for presenting classes. It's just, it's amazing the fellowship that is involved in being a vigilante. And it's not just that, there's so many other benefits. You get access to the vigilante-only swag shop. You get the fifteen percent discount on all merch from Firehouse Vigilance. You get the after parties, you get the Vigilante get togethers when we're all at the same place and we get together and we raise a glass and do a toast and have the vigilante creed. You get the vigilante coin when you hit your one year anniversary with your number. The fireways, the forums, the archives, all the courtly projects that are coming that you get to be a part of and get to be behind the scenes on, it's grown into something bigger than I ever imagined And I want people to know about, I want people to be a part of. If you're not a vigilante, why not? I don't know. I don't know how how big it could be. I don't know.

Corley: I mean the vigilantes are are where the work is at. They're the ones who are getting stuff done And it's phenomenal to be a part of it. I wanted to get on here and explain where it started, how it how it came to be, and ask you, if you're not a vigilante, why not? It go to Patreon. dot com slash the vigilantes. That's where you sign up. It is $5 a month. I mean it's you can't even get a cup of coffee for that anymore. Five bucks a month and you get to be a part of this unbelievable group Go to patreon. com, sign up, become a vigilante, and I will see you on the Discord. Hopefully we can keep it on topic. on task. Speaker 3: The building is occupied until we say it's occupied. Corley: How do you make it packageable where they can take it back and make a difference at their organization? Speaker 3: That argument Is an easy one because we have documented proof. What I'm doing, how I'm doing it, is this gonna positively or negatively affect the rescue of an unprotected civilian. Corley: Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance Weekly Scrap, number 342. My guest tonight is is one of the biggest influences on myself. He is one of my heroes, Mark Von Oppen. He is a retired fire service professional and leadership speaker focused. On operational integrity, moral courage, and people-first decision-making in high-stakes environments. Drawing from real-world experiences, Mark speaks candidly about leadership under pressure. the responsibility that comes with rank and the importance of standing behind your people when it matters most. I am excited to have him back once more, my brother, Mark Von Oppen, episode number 342. Welcome.

Mark Von Oppen: Hey Carly, thanks. Thanks for having me. It's nice to see you again. It's nice to be back. And it's an honor. Thank you. Corley: I'm excited. Everybody knows I'm excited. Anything you feel needs to be added to the to the Bio. What else? I mean, there's so much I can say, but what anything you want to add? Mark Von Oppen: No. There's nothing I want to add. I mean, I I'm not big on talking about myself, but thank you. I'm hyped, dude. That was great. Corley: Sorry. Mark Von Oppen: All right, perfect. Thank you. Corley: And I will do the sponsors. We'll get the sponsors done and then we will get to scrapping because the audience has already been throwing questions So, newest sponsor, huge shout out to Fire Cold Plunge. I've actually got one and I use it. They sell these to a lot of fire stations for a reason. It is built solid. one of the most solidly built cold plunges you can get low maintenance tiny footprint and it stays at temp so there's zero prep after a workout after a call you can just hop in and cool off fire cold plunge check them out firecoldplunge. com Everything in the fire service gets tested. Training, instincts, equipment. That's why SnapTite designs and builds its fire hose to perform no matter the challenge. Durability, packability, kink resistance. Every single line is tested before it leaves the factory, so you know you can count on it. Snaptight is American made, firefighter trusted. Visit snaptighthose. com to learn more or find a distributor near you. Firestationfurniture. com. They provide a complete line of quality furniture for your firehouse. Firefighter owned and operated. They understand the strain firefighters put on furniture. And offer furniture that's built to last. Visit www. firestationfurniture. com for more information. And finally, March 13th and 14th, Orangetownship in Indiana. If you're in Indiana, if you're in the area of Orangetownship Fire Department. The 13th, me and Amanda are doing our relationship class. It's free. Come be there. And the next day, all day, leadership and culture, nine L's, reflexive readiness from me. Free lecture. All day. Indiana. If you're there in the area, show up. That's it. That's all the big announcements. Now I can focus on what's important. Mark Von Oppen. My brother. You have everybody who's heard heard me tell my story knows how big of an influence you had.

Corley: The reason Firehouse Vigilance is called Firehouse Vigilance is one of your blog posts that I don't even know if you remember making it, but that's the reason it's named what it is. So you've had a huge impact on me. the the the reason that firehouse vigilance exists and but now let's talk about where you're at currently and how is it going how's like let's just start there how's it going Mark Von Oppen: It's going great. If you're talking about where I'm where I'm currently at, I've been retired from the fire service for going on two and a half years now. So just like your they say your career goes by fast, retirement goes by fast too. So it seems like seems like it was a million years ago I was climbing on a rig, but it was only two and a half years ago. So So yeah, just enjoying retired life and and exploring California and getting you know to travel with the wife and stuff. It's been great. Corley: I love that, man. And and I that's you know so often here when people do retire that that They lose their sense of purpose, they lose their meaning, you know, they that the their whole identity was tied up in it and and they don't know what to do. And so that's always a concern for people who are who are looming, staring down that barrel. And for you, especially. you were heavily, I mean fully involved, no pun intended, but you were heavily involved. And so that would be something that that would I'm just happy to hear that it's a it's an awesome turn of a page.

Mark Von Oppen: Yeah, I was concerned a little bit with that. You know, there was there was a bit of a you know a looming identity crisis that I thought I might experience when when I retired. And that quickly went away. I think it I think it maybe lasted a couple of weeks. And then I I was kind of on I was lucky though. I I when I retired a number of my contemporaries stepped out the door at the same time. So we all kind of left at at one time and there were guys who I'd come up with, you know, prior to the fire service. And we went to the academy together and things like that, worked on you know, ambulances together way back in the day, started community college back in the day together. So we kind of went through this whole experience together from testing for five years to get into the fire department, sleeping in our cars, camping out for, you know, applications and stuff, that kind of thing, to, you know, you know, promoting to leadership positions in our organization, you know, so we we did did the whole thing. So, you know, it was kind of one of those things where I felt like we all felt as a collective when we would we try to get together at least once a month and and meet for happy hour and stuff like that. And it was We all felt like we we didn't leave anything on the table. We just kind of spent, you know, spent everything we had on trying to be, you know, leave the fire service better than we found it. And hopefully we did.

Corley: And that's that's you know, because we talked briefly before we went live, and one of the things that we briefly touched on, I want to hit on it here, which is that like well you had that rogue mentality. You talked about being a rogue. and the roads out there and and and pushing and trying to make a change and fully involved the big four all the things that that have been mantras of Mark Von Oppen But you're talking about when you leave it all basically leaving all your chips on the table when you walked away and it causes a burnout. Basically dig into what we were talking about is what I'm trying to segue to. Mark Von Oppen: Oh, I think that I think that when you're those people, I I you know I posted something on on the fully involved Facebook page the other day that said that you can't be an inspiration to some without being a joke and an embarrassment to others. And I think that that You know, when you're trying to be out in front and do things that you feel are significant, or trying to make a dent or trying to make an impact, however that is. You know, you're gonna be what did we say? Either A vilified, B ignored, C you know, mocked or or D, all of the above, and it's usually D all of the above. And so you know, I I just think that You know, whenever you're super into the job, and that's where that whole rogue thing came from, when whenever you're super into the job and you you walk around with that chip on your shoulder because you feel like you know the world is against you and people aren't taking you seriously and stuff, that can lead to burnout. And and when you when you push and push and push and push and push because you love the job so much and you you want your brothers and sisters to have first access to everything that you're so excited about and this whole world that you've had your eyes open to by going out and and doing you know the things that we've been privileged to do throughout our career, you know, getting around the country and and meeting lots of people, going to these great conferences and and and really you know, powwowing with these great minds.

Mark Von Oppen: And, you know, a lot of the rooms that I sit in, I I really don't even open my mouth just because there's so many people there that are so knowledgeable. You know, you want to be able to bring all those things back to your organization. And when when your love of the game and your love for the people that you work with is unrequited, I mean that's the worst thing that I think you can experience is that that that love of the game and and wanting to share that passion that you have for you know your your second family and in some cases your first family, you know, when when people just When the organization, you know, just sort of beats on you, you know, it's hard to keep going sometimes. And I think that that's where you see a lot of people really, really, really flame out and just get, you know, they they just quit on the job. You know, that there's nothing sadder to me than that. You know, and I I think that the fire service has a really, really bad habit of of taking people who are excited about the job and beating the shit out of them with their own enthusiasm.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Mark Von Oppen: You know, and I think that that's that's a problem. And you see it really with young people too. And that's that's what's scary to me is is how willing we are to abuse young people when they come into the fire service and take their enthusiasm and just wring it out of them. You know, and then we move on to the next person and we wonder why they're burnt out and and pissed off because they're doing all this extra work and sometimes it doesn't really amount to anything in their organization. You know. Corley: And I think and especially the people that listen to the scrap, they're they are those that, you know, the 5%, the 10%, whatever percentage you want to put on them that are trying to make a difference in their organization They're the people that like that are tuned in live right now on a Tuesday night on their own time coming in to hear what Mark Von Offen has to say. And I think that what you just said resonates with all the everybody. in that regard because it is it is a tough place to be, especially in your own organization. Because I can't, I cannot say enough the impact. you had. So I have, there's no question the impact you've had, you know, in my own life, let alone the fire service. And I'm not here just to to fluff you up and all that kind of thing. But It doesn't translate to your own department. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Mark Von Oppen: I'm blushing. no, it doesn't. And that and I think that that's the hardest thing. And what I would encourage people to do is when they're not experiencing the buy-in from their organization or they're they're pounding their head against that imaginary wall is to seek out you know places to have a positive outlet so that you don't You don't prematurely age yourself in your organization and and those those groups are fools groups. They're it's attending conferences, it's things like that. It's it's listening to the scrap. It's It's it's it's it's writing articles and submitting them and and and hopefully getting them published and and finding a way to to share your communicate your passion with the world. because you know there's there's That frustration can manifest itself in a lot of ways, you know, variable problems. And that's why I think it's so important that you and Amanda do what you do, where you probably I don't you know, I haven't attended your class, but I I would assume that there's some component of it where you talk about, you know, managing, you know, your stress at the firehouse so that it doesn't, you know eat away at your marriage. Yeah. That kind of thing. So it's it's super important. And and you know, on on the extreme end, you know, if you're if you're so ate up for the job and you're not you're not experiencing any buy-in and you're super frustrated and on the on the extreme end it can lead to health problems in in you and i don't did we talk about this last time i was on the scrap when i i got it

Corley: Between my memory, the number of scraps, and how long it's been since I had you back on. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah, that was a dumb question. I'm sorry. and I'll leave I'll leave the question asking to you because it's your show. I don't want to hijack it. In my case, you know, one of the things that I share with people sometimes, I don't always talk about it, but I, you know, I ended up getting hospitalized at one point in my career because I was so frustrated and so ate up for the job and so pissed off and I had all this anger because I felt like I was pushing and pushing it, pushing and pushing and doing all these things. And it was starting to affect my relationship with my wife, my relationship with my kids. And and one day I just I put myself into AFib and didn't realize what it was and went an entire 12 hours in AFib and then finally Told my wife I felt like there was something wrong with me, you know, besides the normal stuff. And I I ended up jumping in the car and go to the emergency department and you know got cardioverted and was off work for a month. And when, you know, when they you know guys would come visit me in the hospital, because I I went to the emergency department in Palo Alto where I where I work. I was I was hypotensive and dizzy and all that stuff. And so rather than calling 911, I got in my car and drove myself to the hospital.

Corley: Of course. Mark Von Oppen: Right. I'm sorry. That's not true. that was the second time. The first time I drove myself to the the fire station and my guys actually transported me. That was fun. But you know, when I was when I was working through the process of trying to get back to work, the doctors were asking me, you know, do you have trouble sleeping? No, I don't have trouble sleeping. Are you under a lot of stress? And I said, no. and I thought that they just meant, you know, stress from going on calls and that type of stuff. And what they're really what I really started to think about was the organizational stress that I was experiencing, the things that I was subjecting myself to and and the things that that I was trying to control that were completely out of my control. And I was holding on way too tight. And once I decided that the world didn't need me to fix it, and I let go of some things and I I, you know, you know, basically you know, started to manage my expectations as to what I expected the organization to give back to me. then I started getting a lot better. And I know, I I never had any problems after that. And that was gosh 14 or 15 years ago, I want to say. Okay. Maybe more. But you know, it's and then, you know, it's funny because after that I went through that, you go through this whole self-doubt you know face because you you can't trust your body and and you know you're you're concerned that the next time you try to exert yourself, sure you may go a day fit again. And and the guys were great. You know, when I was off for a month they invited me to our headquarters station to have dinner one night. And as I came in, I sat down. They said, hey, sit over here, you know, sit right there. And as I sat in the chair, And they were getting ready to put dinner on the table. There was a defibrillator in the chair right next to me. So the guys were like, hey, we just want to make sure. Get you back. Yeah, exactly. So that felt Okay. But I don't know where I was going with this. But I I started managing my expectations and and and and it it got better.

Mark Von Oppen: So you know if you're not taking care of yourself and finding a way to have an outlet for these things that that really eat us up, it can affect things in a really, really negative way. And so I would really encourage guys to You know, you know, anybody listening to this, you know, any firefighter listening to this, you know, make sure that you're taking care of yourself and find positive ways to manage your stress. Right. Because it wasn't the calls. It wasn't the calls. It wasn't being up all night that was that was getting to me. It was just the fact that I felt like I didn't have I wasn't being listened to. Yeah. And that sounds that sounds really petty, but it it sounds really silly, but it's that's the key. Corley: I I really the older I get, the more I study this whole leadership, human motivation and psychology. It's just Heard, valued, and understood. Speaker 1: I mean, yeah. Corley: When people feel that way, they'll they'll move mountains for you. But when they don't, when they don't, they'll actually start like I don't even want to say subconsciously, it's almost actively torpedoing the organization that they work for.

Mark Von Oppen: Oh, for sure. Yeah. If you don't take these high-energy people and and put them, you know, give them a positive outlet for all this energy that they have, they're gonna find ways to actively undermine things that go on. And I was, you know, I was guilty of of not being on board with the program too when I when I felt like I was being thwarted and stuff like that. I'm only human and I'm not I'm by no means perfect. I didn't get it right most of the time. but you know that's why I think you know we try to share the things, the mistakes that we made because because the failures are where the learning happened. Corley: So on the timeline, on the timeline of this, the the health issues, was this did those shape into what you teach is fully involved? Were those before, were those during, or was had that has is that part of the mellowing of the rogue mindset? Mark Von Oppen: No, that was when that was probably at the height of the the whole rogue thing. That was when I was blogging hard. Speaker 1: Right. Mark Von Oppen: there's actually a blog It's actually a blog I wrote about it. It's on the blog if you look it up. My name and Seven Minutes. that's what the blog is called about when I was being cardioverted because the the reason why it's called Seven Minutes is because I was sitting in my sitting on the gurney in in the emergency department and this this woman walks in And she she says, hi. And I said, hi. And she, you know, she pulls back the curtain and says, hello. And I'm laying there half, you know, in a little bit of a drug-induced stupor. And I said, Who are you? And she says, I'm your anesthesiologist. And I said, Oh, what's up? And she goes, we're gonna you're I'm here for your cardioversion. I go, When's that gonna happen? She says, in seven minutes. And that was when my mind started racing about how they were gonna clinically kill me for for a second, you know, stop my heart and then restart it and that whole thing and all the things that I went through. So did you ask a question? I can't remember what it was. you did.

Corley: basically with the health issues, how do they affect your messaging? Mark Von Oppen: I think that well I think that at a certain point after that, that was like I said that was what the question was i you know i was in full blown pissed off mode and i think that that's what a lot of people gravitated towards at the beginning when i started fully involved was i was so mad and i just i just I put it out there to the world and people were like, oh dude, me too. And so I think that that really resonated with people. And I I and so yeah, I what I did was I decided that I was gonna dial back my efforts in the areas where I wasn't getting any any you know any buy-in and I was going to start focusing more on the things that were working. and and and really try to control those things and and you know focus you know certainly first on family try to rebuild you know those those bridges that I've burned and then you know rebuild the relationships that I was that were maybe suffering from who I was in my department. And then I just started to kind of slow down a little bit. You know, I wasn't trying to do everything. And like I said earlier, you know, once I decided that the world didn't need me to fix it. Yeah, then I I was able to, you know, get better and feel better. Yeah.

Corley: So No, and you gotta be careful when you ask me questions with my ADHD. I'll forget the question I asked you 30 seconds ago I same thing dude I just did it to you I have no idea but I was listening I was paying attention I promise no Sam has informed us news reports are reporting YouTube is having outages. They're having major issues, apparently. People's accounts are getting deleted. You cannot log in. So if you're not in here, I can't tell you that. But everybody else that made it in, that's what's going on if you're having trouble logging in Mark Von Oppen: So this is this is recorded though it'll be up later, right? Corley: Yeah, yeah. I mean it always has been. I don't know what the issues are as far as affecting that. I don't they should not. I hope not. I hope they don't delete the account. So I'm going back to our notes here. Actually, I'm going to kick to the audience. I'm going to go with questions from the audience coming at you. This one was actually asked before the show even started. Joe Govita, one of the front row gang. The front row gang shows up before everybody gets here and gets their seats on the front row. But he said, question, out of your big four, which which which I am gonna have made. the the big four in the in the wooden script so that you can put it in your man cave. It's gonna be awesome. You're gonna I I'm gonna have it made. I'm gonna have it made by somebody on Etsy or somebody with a nice wooden CNC machine It's gonna be excellent. It's like the live laugh love thing. You know what?

Mark Von Oppen: I got really. Somebody said that the big four, you know, do your job, treat people right, can all that happen all that attitude. They said that that was the live laugh love for gay firefighters. Corley: Right. No, 100%. I that was the post I'm referencing. So I'm gonna have it made in a beautiful script Mark Von Oppen: Yeah. And I said, hey, you know, I I I I love it. Corley: So all right, but back to the big four. Out of the big four, which one do you see people struggle with the most? Mark Von Oppen: I think for me personally, and I I I would think it's probably everybody's having an all-in attitude. I think that that's I think that I mean then and really that's the easiest thing to control. You know, I think it's you know you can You can't control a lot of things, but you can control how you react to things and how you how things manifest. And I think I think maintaining a positive attitude all the time is difficult because of all the things that Yeah, we're subject to as as firefighters, you know. I mean, it it there's there's no fire department out there that's not subject to budget. cuts or staffing shortages or equipment issues or whatever it is. And so all those things start to add up. And those are the those are a lot of things that we can't control. But we can control our attitude. But you know, I I was guilty of of you know, when we would have a leadership change or something like that, not, you know, being skeptical and and not always buying in. But I think I think attitude's a tough one. I mean, doing your job and and and and working hard at that every single day. We enjoy doing the job and and and doing your job and and And being able to count on your brothers and sisters to do those things. You know, that that to me is we, I guess, you know, attitude you could you could exert peer pressure too. But you know The the doing your job thing creates trust, giving all that effort. I'm sorry, do your job treating treating people right. Treating people right, I think, is is easy. Just, you know, it's like the the Alan Brunesini used to say, you know, just be nice, you know, just like the customer service model.

Mark Von Oppen: And it's it's easy. You know, I mean we got a great job and And everybody wants to help and and people love us and and you know that's that's easy, you know, treating people right. giving all that effort, you know, going hard. That's that's not always a an easy thing, but you know, if if you know it if all the having these standards you know create the culture so it's you know when you do these things they become habitual and then and what's so important within the big four and all that and why I I I think it's such an important mantra is that we pick each other up when we're down. And so when I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing, you know, my guys would tell me Hey, all in attitude, right? You know. So that would help snap me, you know, back to where I needed to be. So I guess, you know, the I I answered it long form. But I think the attitude thing is is You know, a tough one because I think people like to sit around and complain and I think it's the answer. Yeah, certainly I do. Yeah, I did. You know, and I I wasn't always, you know, the most positive person. And And that could have been better.

Corley: And it's more powerful. I mean, it's just straight up more powerful. The negativity is it it has more pull. Mark Von Oppen: I think. Oh, 100%. I mean, if you look at just all you got to do is watch the news. I mean, it's all everything. Whatever side you're on, it's all about outrage and and you know so and and that's what gets clicks. Corley: You know it's gonna be a beautiful script in some sort of nice grainy wood, and it's gonna say do, treat, give, have. Man, see that that's another one. Mark Von Oppen: That's another one. I love it when people I don't know. Again, that I guess the the big four has become, you know, I don't want to say ubi so ubiquitous that that people just punk it and it it just it gets so old it's like you know You know, you'll see those things where like like people will post it, they'll they'll make those signs and stuff and people will say that you know, you know, do get whatever it is. And it's like, come on, man. just you know it's dude it's your fault well you can't you can't be mad about it I'm not mad but like I said you know it's like you know you you can't you you're gonna be a joke and an embarrassment to somebody

Corley: So it's I I I love it, dude. It made a huge again, it made a huge difference with me. and that and the the yes, I I try to think of the red sign that I cannot quote right now No, excellence is my responsibility. Excellence. Thank you. I was sitting there trying to, I was thinking of the the Fahrenheit number, but yeah, excellence is my responsibility. Huge impact on me. Huge impact on me and I of course when I first found you was your your angry blog post, man. Like when I read Switch Girl. Oh that one yeah And but I then I was down the Mark Von Hoffen rabbit hole, you know, and I'm like, oh yeah, I'm a rogue too. You know, and then I got to actually hear you speak, and the message was you can do this job and you can love this job and you can be good at this job and that's okay and you can be proud of it because I'd never heard that before you Mark Von Oppen: Yeah. And so I think that I think I think the thing about being proud of doing the job and being excited about it, I think that I don't know I know in in my department, we weren't really good at acknowledging when people did a good job. It was just sort of expected. And I think that we're we're really bad as an industry at sort of acknowledging. when people do great work. And some of that is good because I think that, you know, we're humble and and we don't do a whole lot of self-congratulating or patting ourselves on the back. but I think within our organizations, again, getting back to the the burnout portion that we sort of talked about at the beginning, I think, you know, when you've got people who do good things and do good work, the organization needs to on a regular at regular intervals pause and take inventory of the great work that their people are doing and and acknowledge it, you know, be it calls or effort or whatever it is. Because if if you don't, if You know, your your own motivation is going to carry you only so far. You know, and I think that people need to need to hear that they're doing good things and it's it's appreciated.

Corley: Again, back to the heard, valued, and understood, man. I mean, it's not rocket science. I just don't understand why people who seem to promote into administrative positions seem to can't keep track of that Mark Von Oppen: Yeah, I mean I try to give credit to the fact that, you know, I think that when people promote up, I think they want to continue to serve the the you know the people that that that are supposed to serve, you know, the obviously the citizens, but but the the employees as well. but I think that you know they just get they're they're subject to a different set of rules, I think sometimes. And I think that they get frustrated because the only thing that comes across their desks usually are problems or disciplinary issues and things like that. And so I think that it I think that that's its own creates its own form of burnout. I mean the good ones get it and the good ones can figure it out. And you know, there's a lot of really good, good, good leaders out there at all levels. But I but I I think the the the problem is the bad ones stand out.

Corley: Yeah it's more powerful again. It goes back to that negativity. Yeah. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah. Corley: No doubt about it. Mark Von Oppen: But I try to I try to step back and and and just try to imagine and put my have empathy and and and try to imagine what sort of pressures they're subject to and what their day looks like. Because if, you know, if you look at me as an engine company captain, I felt like The longer I went, I felt like there was there weren't enough hours in the day to get everything done. And then you and then you magnify that by an entire department. And then it, you know, it all kind of comes to you know, one person at the top that's responsible for it. And we we ask a lot of those people. So, you know, you got to be patient with them too. Corley: It's a lot of grace. From the from the Mark Von Oppen that I was introduced to like in 2015 era to now, a lot more grace for Mark Von Oppen: Is that just willing to be well I think that well a lot of my friends promoted into leadership positions and I I think that you know higher than me, you know, I was I was mid-level management and and I think that you know when you when you see people who you worked with directly and came up with, you knew, you know who they are and you know who they were and who they were when they were riding around on the rig with you. And so sometimes I think there's a little bit of loyalty and there's a little bit of, hey, wait a minute. You know, I know this person a little bit differently than you do. They're not, it's not, you know, so God, I sound watered down. This is terrible. What happened to me? I used to be so angry.

Corley: Yeah, what happened? So I think it's an important message. I really do. Because there is when we start again, I think you touch on something very important here. When you start to forget that they are humans, when you can just make them into the villain. then you're just it's just like watching the news cycle now. Now you're just getting that that what is it that positive reinforcement or that negative that what what is that Bias. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah. Oh yeah, confirmation bias. Corley: Thank you. Just the confirmation bias. What you're talking about is empathy for the people that promote it. And when we lose our empathy. What that's a that's a that's a damn slippery slope. Mark Von Oppen: Well I think the problem too is I think that you know I've been kind of I don't know if this is a real term or if I made it up and if I made it up it might be a real term or it's maybe something that I read and I plagiarized it in my head, but I've been kind of kicking around the idea of workspace empathy where, you know, Some people will say that when when people achieve a certain level of leadership, leadership position or as they move out through the organization, they get they accuse them of forgetting where they came from. Sure. And I and workspace empathy to me means that you maintain that empathy at all levels of the organization and you understand the jobs of everybody and the importance of everybody in the organization and you never discount those things. So that you know when your people, the boots on the ground come to you with some sort of need or issue or identified something that they they need to we the organization needs to remedy. It's not immediately dismissed as just bitching. It's like, okay, well, these guys are these people are subject matter experts on what they do. They're they're very good at it. They care about it. I need to listen to them. And back when I was riding on the rig It wasn't, you know, we weren't running the call volume that we are now where things are different and the job has changed. And so, you know, we have to maintain that empathy at all levels of the organization. And workspace empathy is something that I've kind of been kicking around.

Mark Von Oppen: Like I said, I don't know if it's a thing or if I made it up, but I think it's incredibly important. Because, you know, if we forget where we came from, you know, maybe we never knew in the first place. But if if if you don't, because there, you know, there are there are people who skip Yeah. You know, who ascend meteorically to the top of the organization. Well, when you get there, you have to understand that you may have to go back and learn something. and and be have empathy for the people that are doing the job. Corley: So No, I like that I like the concept of workplace empathy. I've never heard it before. And but I really like it because it it ties directly into we've all know this, the higher you promote, the more responsibility you have. Right. Well the high the higher you promote, the more empathy you're required to have according to the workspace empathy model. You just you just unbuilt un unfolded. So it's not like it gets less and less and less the higher you go. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah, look for it in an article coming to a trade magazine near you soon.

Corley: I like it. I like it. I love Markov. All right, I'm going to go back to some questions here. Tanner Jones, how do you deal with leaders who are in leadership positions as a stepping stone for the next step? Oh, so Tana wants to know if they're just they're they're they're just hitting it to get to the next level. Mark Von Oppen: How do you deal with it? Well, I mean you're never gonna people are always gonna be accused of that, right? And and and it it does, I mean I think that I think that there's people who prepare to do the job. And then there's people who prepare to promote. Yeah. and I think the the good ones do both, right? And the the good ones you know, learn the job, spend enough time in each, you know, in each rank to to learn it and be good at it, and they don't dilute themselves. And you know, the the the hard thing is You know, people that are good firefighters aren't necessarily great administrators, and people that are that gravitate towards administrative jobs aren't necessarily you know, super good at at putting their hands on things and and you know aren't necessarily great firefires. Like I said, the good ones can do both. and and give everything they're just due. And that's why I think that notion that we just touched on about workspace empathy is so important, right? You have to understand the jobs of everybody. And what do you do with those people? When when you've got people that you think are just there for the promotion or just trying to to you know ascend through the ranks of the organization as fast as they can and and make as much money as they can. I don't know. I mean I I guess you're just gonna have to endure it And and try to show the value of what you do on the line and impress upon them how important their support is to you. And try to gain that and and just, you know, gain that trust. because they're gonna be there. And unfortunately the the The fire service, you know, changes one retirement at a time. You know, and that's what I keep that's what I always tell people, you know, it's it ain't forever But you know, if you know, you gotta find a way to work with people because ultimately, you know, the people in in wearing the gold badges and the white shirts, they're they've got more power than you do.

Mark Von Oppen: So it's it's As a guy who fought and fought and fought and fought and fought and probably limited himself as far as his career options went, you know, I'm I'm here to tell you, you know, you Find a way to get along with them. You know, find a way to bring them in and find a way to gain their trust and and vice versa. Corley: It's a lot easier to work with them than to just keep punching up. And that's a lesson. I learned that lesson very slowly. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah, I know. Thank you. I you know, I guess. I'm talking about me. No, I know. I know I know exactly what you're talking about. I just, I just, you know, I think that this is The the Mark van Oppen that's talking to you right now probably would have gotten punched in the face by the Mark van Oppen of 15 or 20 years ago. You know what I mean? But it's It it's, you know, it's I think it's it's just one of those things where with time and distance and you know, I think being a parent shapes some of that too. I think that, you know, you understand that that you know As a parent, that that kind of shapes your views on leadership as well. I mean, you try to do right by your kids all the time and and everything you do is about loving them and trying to prepare them. And try to do right by them and give them the best possible opportunities. And they still accuse you of being a terrible parent. You know? So I mean just I I just look at that and I'm like, oh well that's That's the job of a fire chief, right? And and so, you know, it's like if you if you just translate all those things I just said and making it about your your firefighters and your employees, you know, you know, they can think that they're doing a great job. and, you know, based upon, you know, our perspective. You know, and our expectations, we may either extend grace to them or we just, you know, fight them at every turn. So You know, when I when I was in the middle of being really pissed off and and blogging, like I said, super hard. There's a fire chief out of Arizona who was a is a mentor of mine.

Mark Von Oppen: his name's Gary Ells. And Taught a lot of leadership and I took some leadership classes from him and learned a lot of great things from him. We had a new fire chief who was coming into our organization from the outside who people were very skeptical of and we heard some things about him. And I had some run-ins with him in my first his first year there, but because of of who I was. and did some things that probably should have got me in a lot more trouble than they actually did. But Gary said to me He said, when this guy comes in, give him a year. Give him a year before you make up your mind. I know you've heard a lot of things about him, but just give him a year and let him and see what happens. Then after a year, you can make up your mind. And you know, in that time, I was doing, I was, you know, it was Mark on 10, maybe 11. and you know, he was, he, he, he was actually very fair with me. And and that's the one thing I will say about him. you know, was I was I had heard a lot and I heard a lot of, you know, not so great things. and but but my experience with him as being somebody who was difficult to deal with in our organization was He was very fair with me. so you know, so I anyway. but Were we talking about how we deal with people that are just trying to climb on people's backs and promote the organization?

Corley: It's a scrap. This is where we go. This is how it looks. Mark Von Oppen: Okay. All right. Corley: Like a spy like a like a firework. That's the that's the trail we follow. Wherever your brain goes, that's where we go. Tim Hogue has one for you, which is, is there a way? This is on your what I call your Workspace empathy model. He says, is there a way to remind those in a position of power and control of the workspace empathy while still being subordinate? Like from a lower position, is there a good way to remind them? Mark Von Oppen: Oh, 100%. I mean, I don't I don't think it's being insubordinate at all. I think it's it's it's educating them as to what we do. And and and and Yeah, there's so much there's so much more data collected nowadays, you know, like and then like when you look at like what's going on with like firefighter rescue survey I mean, shit, I wish all that stuff was going on, you know, when I was a new firefighter. You look at all the cool stuff that they're being able to pull out. So, you know, there's a lot of data that you can site as far as you know making them aware of what we do and how things have changed and and just reminding them of of and showing them how we do the job. It's important, you know, to to maintain I I think it's great when fire chiefs come and ride along, you know, I every every so often with crews, especially the busiest crews, you know. It's You know, if if you've got a fire chief who never worked on a busy company or never worked on an ambulance, if you've got ambulances in your department, you know, paramedics that transport. if they've never done that, they should spend, you know, 24 hours or maybe a 48 on your busiest ambulance and do run every transport and and see what it's like to really get you know, your ass handed to you and and know that these guys are doing it on a regular basis. And and I, you know, and I I think that that's just You know, making someone aware of something is not being an insubordinate. And I think that sometimes that's confused with, you know When people hear hear things that they don't want to hear, they they think it's insubordination.

Mark Von Oppen: You know what I mean? And I think that there's a different there's a way to do it. And you can absolutely do it. And I think it's important that that they come by the stations and don't just stop by for an hour or something like that. You know, a couple times a year. I mean last time I checked the head of our organization had his had turnouts You know, so it's like, and a white helmet. So it's like just, you know, show up and ride with your busiest crew and just, you know, just ride and don't judge and just let them be them. And And do whatever. Just just be one of the just be a firefighter again. Corley: And I can the capital that can be gained from that. I just it's just astronomic. There's just no time for that. There's no there's not enough time. I would love to. There's just no time. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah, I don't I don't believe that. I mean there I I don't know. I I that's a hard one for me. because I, you know One of the things that I really admired about our our the the PD side of things in our city was, and it's it's different, I think, because I don't the on on major holidays, i. e. like you know Christmas or Christmas Eve or something like that, I would we would see some really old people on patrol and you'd look at the sleeves of their their uniform shirt and there'd be a lot of gold and there'd be a gold badge and and the the chiefs And the captains and the the really high-up people in our in our on the PD side would take shifts so that guys could go home. And and be with their family. You know, if they had young kids or something like that, they would work. And I don't know that that's necessarily possible in the fire department, but you know, in organizations where you can do that, that's a pretty cool thing.

Corley: No. Mark Von Oppen: If you've got someone who's got you know little kids at home and and they they they're they're working because they're the low on the seniority list. Corley: I mean, if if you can work for them, work for them. Yeah. Mark Von Oppen: No, I mean and and my again. Corley: I'm a broken heard, valued, understood. How good how how much of a message does that send? Right. About about how much I value you and how much I value what's important to you. Right. On a day that can't be replaced. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's powerful. Yeah. Great question. Was that taught? Yeah, it was a great question. Lucanos wants to know, is that the problem? We expect good operational leaders to be good administrators and good administrators to be good operational leaders. Is that the root of the problem? Mark Von Oppen: well I think that well it I think the root of the problem is we we talk a lot of leadership, we talk a lot about systems, we talk a lot about succession planning, and then none of it ever happens. You know, I think that if if we if we did any of the things that we said we would do, we'd do, we would be great. But you know, one of the things I talk about in my class in terms of excellence is my responsibility is the The organizations that actually succeed and the ones that that maintain these cultures that endure are the ones who say what they're going to do and then they actually do it. Actually do it. And so You know, we do a really bad job of preparing people to step into those roles and identifying those people who are good at those roles, right? I mean, and unfortunately, you know, as stated previously, you know, some of those people prepare for promotion and they never they never learn the job and so you know but like i said not all of them but some do and they're the ones that stick out so You know, yeah, we expect him to be great at everything, but you know, at the same time, you know, do I expect, you know, our fire chief to be out there throwing ladders and stuff like that? No, he they could throw ladders when they needed to throw ladders, but they don't need to throw ladders anymore.

Mark Von Oppen: you know, unless they're in a department where they're actually responding on calls. Sure. You know what I mean? But but, you know, I I think that I'm not sure I'm answering the question. but You know, I I think that we need to identify people that that are are are good operationally, and we need to identify the people that are good administratively and put people in the right place. You know, and I think that, and give people time to have that overlap so we actually have you know, you can you can learn the job from the person who is you know, stepping out with that role. I think that that's always been the biggest problem with fire surface. And that's what I never understood is, you know, You know, you promote someone a chief's level position, and the the chief that was there who had been in that job for five or ten years or whatever and and main you know learned a lot in that time and made a lot of mistakes. You may have a couple of days or something or three or four days. Three or four days where they're like, okay. There's everything I've been running place.

Corley: It's all your shit. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah. Here's the key. See ya. Yeah, it's just like it just it doesn't make any sense. And so you know, until but it's I don't know. I mean, you should shadow someone in their job for six months, I would imagine, you know, at the very least, to have some idea of what they do. And then You know, the the job the admit the job of the administration is is daunting. And then, you know, I think sometimes it just doesn't, it doesn't even appeal to the people who Corley: Like breaking down doors and dragging hose lines around and we're wired for action and and I mean yeah along that line, officer development, specifically succession planning, just base 3X leadership. Have you guys taught the first one yet or is it coming up Mark Von Oppen: Have we taught it yet? No, we're still we're still teasing some stuff out. Is that Michigan? We're going we're going to I think we go to Minnesota first. Minnesota? Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's cool. Candy's Candy and Ben are awesome, and I'm super excited to do that with them. Talk about Dr. Corley: Chief, Candace Ashby, and Dr. Ben Martin. So and then Mark Gronofen.

Mark Von Oppen: Yeah. I told him that too. I said, I said, you know, it's it's it's Dr. Ben, Dr. Candy, and Mark. You know, it's just like it's like, okay. I guess I'm I'm I'm given the the knuckle dragging perspective on leadership when we're talking about this stuff. So no, what were we saying? doctor doctor. Corley: I'm sorry, someone said doctor, doctor. Mark Von Oppen: Stop with the AD stop with the ADHD thing. No, what it was was we were talking about succession planning. Yeah, succession. Yeah, and that's one of the things that we're actually gonna be talking about is is the fact that you know we can There's tons of, I mean everybody's talking about leadership, everybody talks about succession planning, but the problem is, you know, we get so bored in the fire department that we do something once and we think we have it, but then we never maintain things You know what I mean? It's like, you know, you know, I was talking with Candy when I was driving back from Oregon yesterday. you know, she talked about the fact that she'll go in places and and she'll she'll say Here's here's what's going on. Here's what you need to fix. Here's how you fix it. And then a lot of times it'll be like, poof, cool, we did that. Problem solved for like five minutes. And it And that's that's the missing piece is the follow-up. And we're bad about following up and seeing things through. We're real big on doing real exciting stuff and and hitting what's hot right now, but we don't do the hard work on the back end. you know, the unglamorous stuff of reminding each other all the time, hey, this is what we're doing, this is the path that we're on. And I said it earlier that that standards create culture. We have to be re relentless in the application of our standards and taking what we learn from you know what you do or what I do or what anybody who teaches leadership does. I mean, you know, I I I've heard people say that there's no new ideas in leadership and they're right. And but what it is, is it's it's the relentless application of these leadership standards that we have. is where we move the needle. And that's that's the biggest problem is is seeing things through.

Corley: You think it's just the human condition? Because I th I feel like what you just described, even though it's 100% applicable to what you're saying, fire determined. I think that's like everybody's problem in the world is just just holding their stand their personal standards with their what insert what it consistency Well, accountability. Yeah, consistency, accountability. Mark Von Oppen: I mean, it's like it's you gotta hold yourself accountable first. And then when when you're accountable and and you you set the right example, then that allows you to actually call other people out. When you're setting the right example and And and or you know, vice versa. Like if someone else is is doing the right thing all the time and I'm not and I I'm complaining about whatever it is, it's like, oh dude, you know You can't get out of your own way because you won't get started. It's like get started, be consistent, you know, stick with it, and we'll start moving things. But, you know, to sit around and just talk about things. you know ad nauseum i mean it just it never goes anywhere talk never moves the needle action does so i love it i love it hump jeremy humphrey coming at you

Corley: From the tri-state. I I just say the tri-state. Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma corner. I think it lives in Kansas. Lives in Kansas works in I know Joplin grew up in Oklahoma. Some sort of combination of that. Anyway, not the point. Jeremy Humphrey asks you, and we're back to the big four. What are some tips and ideas on trying to help instill the big four? to other crews and shifts. Our current station goes by these and has and it has tremendously helped our three crews at our station. How do you spread it? Mark Von Oppen: I think just by leading by example. You know, I think that there's there's always gonna be those people who are gonna, you know, laugh at those mantras and things like that and think that they're cliche and silly and they don't need to do it and they don't need to live that way, but You know, it however you choose to articulate it, have a way of doing things and have a way to set the standard for your culture And if it is the big four, whatever it is, I I I was talking to somebody a couple days ago about what they're doing culture wise and and they had a they had a I can't remember what it was. I think the cult their their culture acronym was right, and it was R-I-T-E. And it was like respect, integrity, trust, and I can't remember what E was.

Corley: But it was something empathy. Mark Von Oppen: So I but it was and he said, but we want to take it and we want to you know apply your big four to it. And I'm like, oh well that is the big for. I mean it's it's it's just another way of saying it. You know what I mean? It's just so you know I think I think the idea is, you know, save the highest standards for yourself and and set the example. And the right people will come along with you. You know, you're never going to reach everybody. And that's what we want. We want 100% buy-in, but we're just not, we're not in a in a meritocracy where it's it's you either buy into the program or you're gonna get jettisoned, right? It's like, so as best you can, stay the course And and set the right example and see who comes along with you. And then the more people that come along with you, the people that aren't on board with the program are going to become the outliers. And then through positive peer pressure, they're probably going to get in line, if that makes sense. Corley: No, it does. It does. Absolutely. And and of course the most powerful leadership tool you have is your personal example. And I mean I mean nothing gets around that. Nothing. Right. Sam Smith Framer. He says, trying to move our priority from janitors to being firefighters. My chief said that, in quotation marks, as long as he is here, rookies have a mop in their hands before a hose. How do I respectfully move forward?

Mark Von Oppen: well, I mean station maintenance is important, but it's not the only thing. And as a guy who got accused of of training more than mopping and my crew, we would be We would, you know, hit the housework as fast as we could, and then we'd be out in the streets and and driving the district and pulling hose and doing things like that. and we we had that same kind of discourse in our station where one crew is really big on on just hanging out the station making sure the station was clean. It's important. But, you know, you know, I've never seen a mop put out a fire. So, you know, I was, I was way more, I leaned way more into training than I did. But I mean you can get You can get house done, housework done pretty quickly. I mean, it's, you know, I mean, it's not like you're doing cleaning the station for station inspections every single day. So, you know, do the housework, do it justice, or maybe set it up. in a way that you do housework at night. You know, so you're training, get out and and hit the streets early and and often and then clean up at night before you go to bed.

Corley: Give it a good, you know Unless unless the chief is is is saying you are not allowed to train. It's not a dichotomy. Yeah, I just I don't get the cleaning done and then go train. Yeah. I mean it's or get the training done and go clean. But yeah, don't don't it's not a fight I would waste ammunition on. No, and I don't I don't think that I mean Mark Von Oppen: I I never understood that one. I mean I would I would my my captain one of my captains early on who I didn't really get along get along with particularly was Huge on housework. And I would say, yeah, God, can't you take us out and give us a drill or something like that? He's like, no, I never really got into it. So yeah, I mean it's everything's important. But to me, training is the most important thing. And the positive with training and getting out, especially in your district, in the in the streets that that you work in and training in real world situations not at the towers is the public relations stuff is huge with that. You know, people love seeing you out there and stuff like that. So, you know, you know, some people want to stay locked in the stations and and, you know, put the blinds down, lock the front door, and put on a movie. And then, you know, I was always of the opinion that I wanted to be out there doing stuff so people could see us. So yeah, easy fix is just get the housework done and doesn't take that long and just get out there and train. If the chief wants to come by and check your work, you know, when you're out, you know, yeah Just let him. The station's clean, Chief.

Corley: Yeah. Mark Von Oppen: Doesn't need to be white gloves. Corley: Unless he's telling you you're not allowed to train. You know, that's a whole different To me that's a whole diff but I've I've yet to meet a a chief that actually has put that has put that flag in the ground says you're not allowed to train. Mark Von Oppen: No, and and in which case if he tells you that you can't go out and train, And you have to stay in the station and do your housework, follow orders, you know, and and be mopping the floor with one hand and then the other hand call your union rep. You know, so Corley: That's what they always told me. So question from Matthew, F12017. I hate YouTube's tagging thing now. They got rid of names and they had the at anyway, not the point. I bitch about it every week Which is easier to get buy-in on? An informal or formal mentorship program? And how do you get other officers on board? None of the top tosses, Mark. Mark Von Oppen: None of them as soft tosses. yeah, it has to be something hard. No, well, I mean I think that I think having informal mentoring programs and formal mentoring programs, I mean, they're obviously every Any kind of a mentoring program you're going to have has benefits, right? when you know, one of the easiest things that I've I've advocated for is and a great guy to talk to about this is Rob Fisher. you've had him on the show, right? Oh yeah. Yeah, he's awesome. He he they they established a mentoring program in his department that that they basically look took people from cradle to grave and and and they ran people through all levels of the organization that way And he's a great, great guy to talk to about that. But you know, the the easiest thing for me to say to create a mentoring program is just tell everybody that they're a mentor. And their job is to prepare the next generation to be successful and successfully navigate their career and be great firefighters and teach them everything that you know about the job, everything that you know about the district, everything just everything possible so that so that they can be successful. And that was something that, you know, I saw manifest itself in the the 49ers organization when my dad was coaching there when I was a kid.

Mark Von Oppen: the veteran players were told that they were to mentor. So it was it was both formal and informal. They were told that they were to train the rookies and free agents coming in, competing for jobs and whatever. The veterans were to train them, teach them everything about the culture and and how they did things so that they could be successful. And that was when they had their dynasty years, when they never lost in the Super Bowl. stuff like that. So you know have it be something that's that's an informal thing. But make sure that if you do have a formal mentoring program that you're choosing the right people. to be mentors. And you're not just, it's not just a good old boy network. And we're not just putting people in mentoring positions who just say yes to everything. Make sure that we we take, even if they're abrasive personalities, if they're great at what they do, make sure that they're they're the ones that are teaching and and preparing people to move on. Corley: And you never know when you're being a mentor. I mean, you never know when you're I don't want to say you're never, but I love your story of the the the Von Oppen, little Von Oppen catching the footballs, man.

Mark Von Oppen: Oh yeah. Freddie Solomon taught me to catch the football. But you know, mentoring happens, mentoring is like something that's like lightning in a bottle. You know, you you you you can't always capture it and and you may not seeing you may not see it necessarily when it's happening, but you look back on it and go, oh that person was mentoring me and that and you know in that moment and I maybe I was too you know young or or arrogant to see it or to listen, but you know You know, in retrospect, this is that that was what that was, and this is what it meant to me, and this is what I learned from it. Corley: Powerful. No, yeah, well no, and and I know, yeah, mentoring Huge part of every time I've seen you talk. Now I want to get one of the quick things we had to talk about because I still got questions coming at you from the audience, but I want to talk about greatest influence on you. for leadership in the life slash fire service. You put this in the notes you sent me and I wanted to ask about that one. Who is the greatest influence on you for leadership in life?

Mark Von Oppen: Well again, I think that it's not, it's it's a lot of people, but it's you know you gotta start with your parents, right? I mean, I think that, you know, certainly my father and I have talked about that a lot. in terms of you know what I learned and and applied to what I did in the fire service. But you know, as far as being, you know, a team player in teaching me how to just be that person that just was Always giving all that effort, having it all in attitude and treating people right, doing their job, you know, that had to be my mom You know, she was she was always on board with what was going on with, you know, supporting my father's career. and I've said it a lot if if you've heard me speak, I moved, you know, I think six times by the time I was in the fifth grade or something like that. So and and my mother had to pack us up and and move and and my dad would be off to the next job and he'd be working and doing his thing and and and she was just she bought into it. And you know, so I think, you know, in terms of like the formal stuff that I speak about in the in the workplace, leadership-wise, it's my dad. But as far as being a team player, and and trying to figure out you know where you fit in and and and you know doing your best to support the overall operation it had to be my mother no doubt totally powerful so I mean, you know, in there too. I mean, there was, you know, my high school football coach was very influential, you know, and all those people that I was so privileged to be around when I was younger, you know, in the 49ers organization. Bill Walsh, Joe Montana, Dwight Clark, Jerry Rice, Freddie Solomon, all those different people, just seeing how that whole operation worked. I mean, Mike Holmgren, all these people, Ray Rhodes, all these people that went on to be head coaches in the NFL. and you know, some of the guys that I work with as ball boys, you know, and worked on the sideline. They're they're coaching in the NFL now. And and and what a failure I feel like because they're coaching the NFL and I'm not Never did.

Mark Von Oppen: So so that was never you never pursued coaching, did you? I looked into it a little bit, but I just didn't I didn't I didn't, I, you know, I I I played in high school and I played a little bit in college. and I just didn't have the passion for the game that you have to have and want it I like playing it, but I didn't have the the want to pursue it to the degree that you have to to be great. Corley: And you had a pretty good inside track for what it took to be at the top level. Mark Von Oppen: Oh, for sure. Yeah, and if if I had had the discipline and been that interested in it, I'm sure I probably could have, you know, you know, bugged my dad and hitched a ride and and and probably had some very good opportunities afforded me, but I just I just was never right never into it. Yeah. So it's just wasn't so I I went and followed my grandfather's footsteps. So my grandfather's a firefighter. So here we are. Corley: Right on. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah. Corley: The what was I gonna say? What number did you wear in high school or or college? This was a qu this is a question Sam and me had before the scrap started.

Mark Von Oppen: Well I wore number 84. Both. Both? Okay. So mm-hmm. So Yeah, and then in c in high school as a wide receiver and in college I played left out. Corley: Then I'm down. Mark Von Oppen: Yep, I'll be here all week. Corley: All right. No, let's take some let me see. I'm gonna look at I'm gonna see I pulling up the questions one more time. There's still like questions stacked up in here, but I like this one. I'll go with Hump. Didn't we just hear from Hump? Yeah, Hump's always asking good questions. That's why I was going to go with Kyle Piv, Fireman Piv. How do we weight personal development and career goals versus bettering the organization? Staying put and attempt building something better versus leaving your organization for another. So there's a lot there to unpack. So take it whichever direction you want. Mark Von Oppen: Well, I think sometimes, well, that whole leaving the the organization one organization for another, I mean, if you're not being afforded opportunities within your organization and you're you're sort of cursed by the small department syndrome, you know, the pastures may be greener someplace else in terms of opportunity. You know, when I look at, you know, our organization, if you didn't promote at the right time, that was it. Right. Because we only had, you know, a certain number a handful of battalion chiefs positions and and you can only get so far if if if someone younger than you promoted into a position or a couple of people younger than you promoted into a position, those positions are limited. So but in terms of you know trying to make it better where you are, I mean, you should always try to make it better where you are. And and no matter where you go You take your situation with you, right? I mean you you leaving the organization isn't always the answer. You know, it's it's starting with you and and trying to correct your situation. And then, you know, by by doing that and building, you know, starting small and thinking big, starting with, you know, yourself and then your crew. and your your station and then hopefully your battalion, you know, that's that's how you start to grow things, you know. But if if the situation is completely untenable and you can't breathe, then you know you may have to go someplace else.

Mark Von Oppen: But, you know, there were as much as we used to sort of bemoan the the organization I worked for, it was a great organization. And everybody who ever left our organization and went someplace else always said, and and some people even came back. They would always say there was There was no organization that they'd ever worked for where they built the types of relationships and met the types of people that worked for the Palo Alto Fire Department. Corley: I work. Nice, nice. Mark Von Oppen: You know, and and that was something that we always I always appreciated hearing, you know, because you know, we went through a lot of pretty tough times Yeah, budget-wise and things, all the things that everybody was experiencing over the last you know 25 or 30 years. Or I'm sorry, or the history of the fire department. you know, the person asking that question to to you know first work on themselves, then you know start small and think big and and and just you know try to see it through because leaving isn't always the answer Corley: No, and if the problem is you, you're just gonna take it somewhere else. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah, and that's what I said. You know, like I said, wherever you go, you take the weather with you and you take your situation with you wherever you go too. It's like, you know, it's It's until you correct what's going on with you, it's always going to look the same. You know, you're always going to see the same things.

Corley: So last one, because I'm going to hit Jeremy Hump, he had a he asked a great question. Talking about influencing others as leaders. He's heard that great leaders also allow themselves to be influenced. How do you balance leading with being open to influence from your team? Mark Von Oppen: Oh, well, I think that anytime that you think that you're the smartest person in the room, something, you know, you need to be in a different room, right? You've heard that one, right? So I mean, I I think there's there's there's always so much to be learned from different perspectives, you know, the the I'm always amazed at just how driven and how smart people are that I work with with and so there was always something to learn from someone's life experience or their perspective. So just being open and being humble. You know, I think that that's the most important thing. How do you balance it? I think you just remain humble and you you have an open mind. And when you're humble And you listen to people and you really care about what they have to say or what their life experience is and what they bring to the table and try to engage that and leverage that for the positive, I think that that's You know, I don't think that it's a sign of weakness or ever. I mean, I think that I think a sign of weakness is claiming that you know everything, you know, and I think that it's super important to you know leverage all the skills of all the people that we have on the ring. I mean, you know, when I as an example of that, you know, late in my career We had a lot of turnover and I had a very senior crew that I worked with and they were great. I mean my driver was a you know a 15-year guy at the time and my my firefighter was a 24-year guy and my driver soup couldn't have been more into the job. I mean, super into it. And and was on the apparatus committee, you know, spec'd our rigs and and all kinds of stuff. And on his days off, he worked He ran an HVAC company. So he knew building construction. He knew systems. He knew all that stuff. And my firefighter in the back was, again, a 24-year guy or something like that.

Mark Von Oppen: acting captain, been on the job a long time, worked in the city for a long time, all this. So one day you know, and so I've I've got it it I would always be asking them about things. And we'd go on calls, hey, what do you think? Hey, this and that, you know. You know, ultimately it, you know, I am going to make the decision and I'm going to stand by it, but You know, there were there were times where you know I would lean on them pretty heavily. And one day I got on the rig and my firefighter, it was his second week driving, had a year and a half on the job. And then my firefighter in the back, it was her. third day and she was on mandatory overtime and both of them are totally they're great people and they're perfectly capable. But I was like, oh my gosh, I've got I've got where's my looking round slam. Where's my toy? Where are my guys? I'm all by myself. And I mean, I, you know, so you know I guess, you know, just try to learn as much as you can and and leverage the knowledge that you have all around you, and we're all better for it.

Corley: Beautiful. Beautiful. Which takes me, which I've asked you this a couple times. You're not the biggest fan of books, but I always like to ask, book or books that you think firefighters should be reading Books or what that people should be reading? Book or books that you think firefighters should read. It doesn't have to be a leadership book, but what books do you think firefighters should read? Mark Von Oppen: Well, I mean, I guess my thing is I kind of do gravitate towards leadership stuff. But I think that all firefighters should read tribe By Sebastian Younger. I talked about that quite a bit. Have you read that? Oh yeah. I use it. Corley: In fact, the Culture Forge class has a whole section from his whole talk of the Blitz and the Mark Von Oppen: yeah battle lands and all that yeah how they were how they were better people when they were pulled together with that common yeah yeah what else anything by how is it escaping my mind? I'm not the only one. John, anything by John Wooden, the the coach from UCLA. He's a man of faith, a great basketball coach, great person, great leader. yeah. Anything by Simon Sinek? He's great. I'm just trying to think of stuff that's like kind of more contemporary. I do read a lot of Sebastian Junger. I think he's great. Nice, nice. I just finished Freedom. That was really good.

Corley: I don't know if I've read anything else beside from him besides Tribe, so that's kind of interesting. Oh, he's got great stuff. Mark Von Oppen: He wrote a book called Fire, which was really good. It's a collection of short essays that he wrote. Some of it are their dispatches from when he covered the war in Sarajevo. when the former Soviet Union fell and the genocide that was going on there very good very good perfect storm he wrote that that's a great book better than the movie I don't know. Okay. That's actually quite a few things. Corley: No, no, you give them you give them plenty. You give like some people like a couple years worth of reading right there. If if if they ride the truck, especially. Speaker 3: Yeah. Corley: So all right, which takes us to one of my favorite things to do, the five questions for firefighters. There are no right answers. They are just your opinions. This is version 5. 0 and the points are arbitrary, passed out by me with the help of the audience. So Mark Von Oppen, are you ready? for the five questions for firefighters version 5. 0. Mark Von Oppen: Am I ready? Are you ready? Is that what you asked? Yeah, you cut out there for a second. Yes, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm I was like, he's listening. I've got my feet for my planet on the floor. I'm ready.

Corley: I'm ready. Number one. Number one, you can do anything in the world except be a firefighter. What would you choose to be? Football coach. Football coach. Offensive, defensive, head. Mark Von Oppen: Offensive. See, that's the hard thing. When I said that, we we did that one when I was at the firehouse a number of years ago. Yeah. And the guys all basically called bullshit on, oh, so you're gonna be a Super Bowl winning head football coach. I said, no, I was gonna be a football coach I didn't specify what. I said I might be a position coach. I don't know, but probably a position coach in football. Corley: Okay. Okay. I love it. Max points out the gate. And you already covered grandpa, so now you got to cover dad anyway. So there you go. Legacy, legacy. I like it. Number two, it's job town. It's time. You're in route and responding. Think of the scene from backdraft where he slaps that tape into that cassette deck. What song are you playing while in route? Oh man, back in black. Back in black. ACDC always let's what's with the I'm I'm wondering like here I'm just trying to think.

Mark Von Oppen: No, I'm just trying to think. I was like, that's kind of a hard one. It's like, you know, I didn't want, I wanted something kind of, oh, you know what? I kind of like Enter Sandman. Yeah. Corley: Can I change it? You just have to say final answer at some point. Final answer, Enter Sandman. Enter Sandman, Metallica. Has Enter Sandman been on? I know we got Metallica on. Has Inner Sandman been on, Sam? I'm looking for the thumbs up, thumbs down. He's checking. There's actually a Spotify playlist with everything. Mark Von Oppen: oh, Enter Sandman gets me hype. Corley: Okay, that is the first entertainment, which I'm actually surprised by. Mark Von Oppen: So that's the first entertainment. I mean, can you just imagine can you just imagine that starting as the roll-up door goes up? Oh yeah. And then as you're on the way to the call, it's just building like because that that song builds and builds and builds, and it's like Corley: Whoa, you know, no doubt, man. I'm just, yeah. That black album, I had a copy of it in, I want to say I I want to say ninety three or ninety four. I don't know when it was exactly, but I wore it out. Like I had a CD.

Mark Von Oppen: I think the black album was 1990. I'm gonna say that. Corley: No, no, but that's when when I had it. I was delayed. I was delayed and I Like completely I was yeah, sorry, I could talk about a wolf and man and the twisting turning through the never and all the rest of it, but not the point. San Francisco band, by the way. Max points, max points Okay. Number three, cold weekend at the station. Checks are done. Training's done. Whatever you're cooking is in the crock pot and getting ready. Everything's done. It's a lazy day. There's nothing else to do. You're not being lazy. But you're clicking through on the Dayroom TV. Tombstone. He just answers the question. Tombstone. Mark Von Oppen: Every time. Every time. If that movie's on, I'm stopping. I don't care What point in the movie it it is, that is on. favorite movie all time, probably. Corley: Well it's gotta be the my most quoted or probably the most quoted movie of all time. I mean surely Surely. I'm trying to think of something that can compare in quotes. It's awesome. Great. I love it. Mark Von Oppen: Tombstone. Corley: Max points three for three Number four on the clock, you get one minute answer. If you go over your minute, you don't get max points. If you talk after the one minute, you don't get max points. Blah blah blah. All the rules. Okay, here we go. Who do you put as your four people on your mount rushmore of the fire service and go? Corley Moore Bride Brush.

Mark Von Oppen: Let's see. Certainly bride brush. Just bonus points I want to put you on there. gosh, let's see. Speaker 3: Hmm. Mark Von Oppen: Mike Dugan, just because he's such a sweetheart, he's always been so good to me. Gosh, this is hard. Corley: You got thirty seconds. No pressure. Mark Von Oppen: Can't talk over a C. try to think. It's hard because you know I don't you know I like a lot of people. They're a lot of really cool people, but I don't I don't necessarily stand in awe of a whole lot of people. Oh god, I don't know. No. Three. Oh. Caroline. My buddy Gary Lane. Corley: Larry Gain, Larry Gain, Gary Lane, Gary Lane. Gary Lane, Brian Brush. Mike Dugan. We also, I don't, we don't know who Brian Brush actually is, because all we know is Brian Crush. That is how we refer to him here. There you go. Mark Von Office. That's my favorite. Califor he every once in a while California tries to claim him, but we took him. He's Okie now. Mark Von Oppen: I'd love to be an OK. But you can't beat the weather out here, man. I'm telling you. Telling you California is awesome. Corley: Final final question. There is heavy fire. Searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES?

Mark Von Oppen: VES. Corley: Easy answer. No question. Mark Von Oppen: Yeah, I spent plenty of time on nozzles. That's fun. I mean, that's cool. I mean, that's great too. I love it, but V EIS, man, that's just that's where it's at. Corley: Where it's at. There you go. Five for five. Mark Von Oppen. The five questions for firefighters. That officially puts 342 scraps in the books. My brother, thank you first of all for sharing your evening with us. it means the world to me that you'd come on, have conversation, field questions, talk about what you love. if people want to get a hold of you, talk to you about 3X leadership, bringing it in or talk about bringing in a class, how do they go about doing that? Mark Von Oppen: Oh gosh, what I was daydreaming. Reach out to me at markvonopen at yahoo. com That's my email. And you know, if you if you're interested in having us come out, that's probably the best way to initiate it. We haven't gotten the the website up and running for 3x leadership yet, but We're that's pending. But yeah, you know, I put my phone number out there, but yeah. Yeah, no. Corley: I think of that, yeah. I think of that 3X leadership, and that's awesome. Remember, remember what was it? Was it Ryan Reynolds started on Two Guys or Girls in a Pizza Place? Was that the sitcom? Is that what it was? I don't know. I don't know. It's like a 90 sitcom, I think. Someone check on that. I'm not sure 100% But not the point. I was thinking like two doctors and this this five and this guy named Mark. Two two doctors and a dummy.

Mark Von Oppen: That's what it is. I mean that's that's what That's what made me so mad when we were putting the flyer together. It's like, well, make the bow said, make sure that you put doctor in there. I'm like, oh Okay, Dr. Dr. Mark. So it's like cool. Corley: It's awesome. I know, I know. So anyway, We're gonna get you an audio. Yeah, no, it's gonna dude. I can't I I thought about flying up to Minnes I think Minnesota was I think the first one. Yeah, I thought about trying to get up there just to see if I could attend. Mark Von Oppen: But it's gonna be fun, I think. It there I think I mean they're just You know, I'm I'm just excited to be doing it with them. They're really cool people. We enjoy it. We just enjoy each other's company. and then they've always got great things to say. And I think the chemistry is going to be really good between them Corley: I'm telling you, the three three of the most like you I'm trying to think of someone else I I love to talk to more than Ben and Candy and you as far as just discussing leadership and going down rabbit holes. I mean that's just that's just gonna be awesome. I mean I probably I mean they're they're probably right there's probably the other person I'd throw in that I talked to probably more than anybody else on those type of topics. But yeah. Rob? Oh yeah.

Mark Von Oppen: Yeah Rob's Rob's awesome. Corley: I just call him just to bounce ideas off his noggin. Yeah. Mark Von Oppen: He's super smart. I just like I said, I mean, there's so many great people out there that you can bounce ideas off of and And guys will just pick up the phone or if you send them an email, they're happy to get back to you. That's what's so awesome about this realm. Yes. you know, it's it's it's still small enough where we can you can reach out and and talk to people and and they'll get back to you. It's cool. Corley: No, absolutely. Housekeeping. Here we go. I was like, I'm losing my space. go to patreon. com slash the vigilantes. The Discord is up and running, very active. If you are looking for a place to find like-minded souls, go become a vigilante. If you're not one, why not? Sam has already posted the after party, and that's one of the things the vigilantes get to do is they get to get together, they get to roast the guest in the after party, and that's coming up in a few short minutes. Coming up next week on the scrap, it is episode number 343. And on this year, it's 25 years later from 9-11, it is going to be Mega Scrap, FDNY. It's Chief Franklie, Chief Joe Jordan, Chief Tom Richardson. They're going to come on and we're going to pay respect to 343. and have a great, great conversation. So I hope you'll be there next week for that. And then two weeks from today. As if that wasn't awesome enough. As if you get Mark Vaughan Oppen, you get Mega Scrap FDNY, then you go to Lyft Conference and we're going to be live. with Todd Edwards and Basil Ibraham. And I got stuff planned for that. And then we've got a live meetup after the scrap with the live audience and the live after party. So live, live, live, live, live at Lyft. Okay All right, that's it. Enough jabbering for me after party time. Thank you once again, Mark Von Oppen, for A being amazing and B sharing your evening with us. Thank you, Curly. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, everybody. Audience, you know I love you. You keep the scrap, you keep coming back and making the scrap magical with your awesome questions I could not do what I do and the scrap would not exist without you.

Corley: Thank you for tuning in live. I love you all. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tones stay silent unless it is burning. This job will never be safe. So stay smart out there