Weekly Scrap #345 - Jake Ryks, Talking Hazards

Speaker 1: Front rogue gang never do complain They rock up front A merry bunch of cunts And we love them everyone After party roast always a joke No one brings it and that's okay Because we love them all the same Front row, front row Crack a beer, led your ear, it's that time Corley: I get asked all the time, what is a vigilante? What does it mean to be a vigilante? And so to explain that, I'm just gonna kind of explain where the vigilantes came from. When I started the group, I honestly thought there was gonna be like 10 or 20 people who really liked the scrap. That would want to be part of the behind the scenes, helping pick out the guests and make the questions and things. And I'd never dreamed that the vigilantes would grow into what it has grown into. Over 700 like-minded souls If you're a vigilante, you are never alone. We have members from across the country. We have members from across the globe. And it's just amazing what it's become. If you're in there, then you get to be in the Discord, and the Discord is where we do all of our dis Discussions and people go live and they talk and they ask questions and we have a channel for bitching and moaning for presenting classes. It's just it's amazing the fellowship that is involved in being a vigilante. And it's not just that, there's so many other benefits. You get access to the Vigilante only swag shop. You get the 15% discount on all merch from Firehouse Vigilance. You get the after parties. You get the Vigilante get togethers when we're all at the same place and we get together And we raise a glass and do a toast and have the vigilante creed. You get the vigilante coin when you hit your one-year anniversary with your number. The fireaways, the forums, the archives, all those quarterly projects that are coming that that you get to be a part of and get to be behind the scenes on, it's grown into something bigger than I ever imagined And I want people to know about I want people to be a part of if you're not a vigilante, why not? I don't know, I don't know how how big it could be. I don't know. I mean the vigilantes are are where the work is at.

Corley: They're the ones who are getting stuff done And it's phenomenal to be a part of it. I wanted to get on here and explain where it started, how it came to be, and ask you if you're not a vigilante, why not? Go to patreon. com slash the vigilantes. That's where you sign up. It is $5 a month. I mean it's you can't even get a cup of coffee for that anymore. Five bucks a month and you get to be a part of this unbelievable group. Go to patreon. com, sign up, become a vigilante, and I will see you on the Discord. Speaker 1: When to Down drop we go Corley: Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance. It is weekly scrap number 345. My guest tonight is Jake Riggs. He's a firefighter, EMT, hazmat specialist, who works for the St. Paul Fire Department in Minnesota. Rescue Squad 1, Hazmat 1. He is the hazmat coordinator in charge of training. 10 years in the fire service, paid on call, part-time and career. 2024 Minnesota Firefighter of the Year. 2024 Firehouse Magazine, Michael O. McNamee Award of Valor recipient. It's a mouthful. I had to work on it. Graduate of the IAFF Center of Excellence. He is a mental health advocate. He is part of the Hazmat guys on social media, the host of the Hazard Class Podcast, co-host. of the Hazmat Guys Podcast. He is my friend, Jake Ricks. It is my pleasure to have you on for episode number 345 of the Scrap. Welcome, my brother.

Jake Riggs: Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's an honor, right? This is I feel like this is quintessential accomplishment in a farm's career to get on the scrap. So I've I'm very proud and honored to be be invited. You know. Corley: Yeah, thank you. I think that that's what I'll say to that is thank you. I think that's an awesome thing to say. Is there anything I missed in the intro? Anything you'd like to add? no man, I think that sums it up. I think that that'll get the gist out of who I am, right? audience yep get your questions primed and ready for jake and myself we're gonna have some fun i got to i got to have a long a a good great conversation enjoyable conversation with jake's reason i have him on here is because i had such a fun conversation with him on his show. And so I said, dude, you got to come on. We got to we got to try and capture the same thing you had. Now we'll see if I can meet his host skills that's why I'll say it all right match match matches host skills so let's get the sponsors I'll get those done so we can get to scrapping let's talk about getting cold Huge shout out, fire cold plunge. I've actually got one in the garage. It is the coldest thing I've ever done. they sell a to a lot of fire stations for one reason. It's because their plunge is built solid, low maintenance, small footprint It stays so cold. I cannot even stress that. And it's zero zero prep. Flip the lid up, jump in, come back from a workout, come back from a call. You can just hop in and cool off. Firecoldplunge. com. Check them out. Everything in the fire service gets tested. Training, instincts, equipment. That's why SnapTight designs and builds in its fire hose to perform no matter the challenge. Durability, packability, kink resistance. Every single line is tested before it leaves the factory, so you know you can count on it. Snaptight, it's American-made, firefighter trusted. Visit Snaptighthose. com to learn more or find a distributor near you. Firefighter safety and accountability starts with being able to quickly find and identify individual firefighters operating on the fire ground. Identifier safety combines the best in photoluminescent materials. for durable firefighter identification solutions that can glow for up to 20 hours.

Corley: No switches, no batteries, which means being able to rapidly identify firefighters by name, unit, or assignment, even under hot fire condition. All specifically designed and tested for the rigors of the job. Be seen on scene, Identifiersafety. com. And last but not least, speaking of the Midwest, FDIC International is the ultimate gathering for the fire and rescue service. Join thousands of your peers April 20th through the 25th at the Indiana Convention Center for an experience that will ignite your passion Learn from world-class instructors, explore cutting-edge products and services from leading companies, and connect with the best in the business. Don't just attend, be part of the movement that drives our industry forward. FDIC 2026 in Indianapolis. And there we go. We did it. You did it. That was good. That was good reading. I'm impressed. Oh, yeah, a little a few hiccups, but thanks for the confidence. And the DJ horn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So let's get to it, man. You sent me so many topics to discuss. And of course, the audience has been hyped about you being on. They have already started sending in questions to ask you. So we've already got those stacking up. So that's always mostly who is this guy Why is he here? Is that mustache real? Right, no? He allowed me to pull on it before the show. It's true, yeah, yeah Just to be verify. But no, people are excited that you're on, Jake. And I am excited. You sent me a long list of topics to discuss, and I loved, I mean, we're gonna hopefully get to as many of them we could But I'm going to start off with I'm going to pick one of these here. There's so many and and I like Who Should and Shouldn't Be a Firefighter. I think that's the one I want to throw at you right out the gate just to get the conversation going and then we'll we'll jump into questions and things like that from the audience. So that one piqued my interest. I want to know what you meant by it.

Jake Riggs: Yeah, so in a world where recruitment and retention is like a hot button topic in the fire service, right? Like how do we recruit better? How do we retain the people that we recruit In a world where call volumes are up and pay is not increasing and and and the the expectations of firefighters is growing on a daily basis, it feels like. The question is, just because we have to fill seats, does that mean that we should invite everyone to the party? and the reality is this is a hard job. This is a job that isn't for everybody, and it's okay to say that, right? I think that we in the in the good natured intent for equality and inclusion and everyone come to the table We've lost the fact that this is a really, really hard job. It's hard physically, it's hard mentally, it's hard emotionally. So when we bring someone in, if we want to not just recruit them, but also retain them, we have to be discerning in the people that we are acquiring. And so In that, I think that it's okay to say, hey, yes, everyone that's interested, please come be interested. But That doesn't mean that it's it's not a bad thing to try it out and realize that it's not for you. It's not a bad thing to come to a recruitment day and go, maybe this isn't for you. and I think that maintaining those outrageously, I would say outrageously high standards is a necessity for the work that we do. We can't allow it to slip for the sake of filling our recruitment and retention numbers. And that's not a shot at any any gender, any race, anything. It is just a shot at Who are we bringing inside of the fold? If I'm gonna if my wife is gonna trust that you're gonna pull me out of a basement fire, I have high standards for that because I got kids to go home to, right? I can't I can't trust anyone to be that person And so while yes, recruitment and retention are important, we have to understand that more than anything The ability to do the job adequately and completely is the most important thing because that's what your coworkers require of you, and that's what the general public requires of you as well.

Corley: No, no, and and to get butts in the seats, it's happened across the country where I don't know if I can actually point to standards being lower. I mean I I feel that way, you know what I'm saying? But I can absolutely attest to requirements being lowered. And so certifications and And efforts that can be measured were absolutely thrown out the window to say, hey, we used to get 700 people to try out for five spots. Now we're getting 30 people to try out for two spots. And what can we do about it? And I know that that I saw that firsthand. Now the actual physical standard of the The fitness test never changed. The written standard, they're always tweaking it, you know, trying to find a good one that that that they can use for that becomes a useful measuring stick without being Measuring useless things, if that makes sense what I'm saying. For sure, yeah. Jake Riggs: And and I but I also just think that it's okay to be like, hey, this is a hard thing. This isn't for everyone. Right? Nobody is surprised that they don't get drafted into the NBA. Right. Hey, I love like say I love football, but that doesn't mean you know I'm getting signed up for the NFL draft Like we should think about the fire service as an exclusive group of people that do a very high risk career. And we have to have standards to match the risk that we take in this career field. Right.

Speaker 1: I love it. Jake Riggs: And I think that in the name of kindness, which I I, you know, don't be wrong, like we'll probably get on mental health and and and everything like that, but like I want to be kind and I want to be loving. And I think that ultimately being kind and loving is telling someone that can't do the job that this isn't for you. Right? Because is it loving to tell someone that can't protect themselves and the people that they're supposed to be accountable to? That they can stick around. It's not loving. It's not doing them a service and it's not doing a service to anyone around them or the people they're sworn to protect, right? Sure. Corley: So we have to be willing to hold that standard I love the message. I just don't know the answer. You know what I'm saying? I don't know how to how to make the answer happen with all the separate fire departments out there. It it's it's an it's a nuanced because as soon as one does I don't know I don't know it's a great it's I I'm not trying to focus in on this one thing and no two car.

Jake Riggs: No, no, but I I I think that like I also think it's equally important in that message to say Everyone come. This is the best job, right? If you think you have what it takes to do it, please come, right? But be ready to put up or shut up when the chips are down. You have to actually be able to do it Right. and so it's not about some sort of exclusivity in in hiring. It's about we like if we want to have hiring lists like we did in the early 2000s where you have 4,000 people putting in for 20 jobs, like we have to open the floodgates wide and let people come and try out, but then also be extremely exclusive about who we deem appropriate for the position. Corley: Right. And measuring that is becomes how do you how do you measure completely that? again, again, I wish I had good answers for it, but I would I think I think that the thing that becomes tricky Jake Riggs: is by the time that we've onboarded someone, we have so much money invested in them. So say you have you know say you have a 16-week academy. The compartment I work for has a 16-week academy By the time you start day one of the academy, they've done multiple interviews for you. They've sent you through a psych exam. They sent you through a medical physical. They've sent you through all these things. And now they have a hiring window that might be, we're going to hire 25 people this calendar year. And If we drop you from the academy, we're down a person on the street, and the streets are going to feel that, right? So we desperately want you to make it through the academy, but at the same time, as soon as you're through the academy You're on the streets for the next 30 years unless you decide you want to go.

Corley: Oh yeah. 30 year problem. Jake Riggs: Yeah. Right. So how do we make our I I think truthfully, if I'm if I'm going to propose a solution, which I don't know if this necessarily is a unique thought, but I think fire academies need to be difficult. I don't think we're SEAL Team Six, but I think that making them difficult enough that if there's quit in you, we'll find it. Right? That's what I want. Corley: No, just the the measure for stick to it, measure for grit, measure for toughness is is that the the separator? I think so. Jake Riggs: I think that if if you're gonna quit And if you're gonna quit because you've done too many flights of stairs, you're gonna quit when it gets hot in the basement. Right? I think that that's real. If you have quit in you, the academy should find it And if it doesn't find it, then then we can train you, right? If you I think it's a it's a mental problem more than it's a physical problem. I think that if if you have the right mindset, we can train you the skills Right. We can teach you how to force a door. We can teach you how to pull a line. But what we can't do is give you the grit to say, you know, to quote one of my favorite movies, if you go, we go, right? If we're in the basement and it's getting hot. We're both dying and we're both surviving, right? That's who I want with me. Right on.

Corley: Oh, I love it. Right. I'm just saying I love it over and over. But let me play. I'm gonna play Oppo. I'm gonna go devil's advocate. And just talk about, you know, hey, I get that, you know, 80s, 90s, we'd have 700, 800 people sign up to take two, three spots, you know, and fight for it. And you could be selective, but it's not just that the recruitment has changed It's the job has changed. And now you know you're trying to recruit for someone to ride 24 rides on a box. And it's not about pushing that basement fire. And so now you're like trying to be exclusive for this, but what you're the the actual job you're getting. recruited to do is is made up of this hoping for this and and people are just like hey that's that's not worth it you know And chin check it and walk away. Jake Riggs: Yeah, and and and you know the reality is the EMS system is not going anywhere, right? Oh yeah, we're we're running EMS calls and it's not going anywhere. If anything, it's getting worse, not better. That's the reality, right? So how do we incentivize people that want to go make that push into a basement to be willing to weather the proverbial storm on the back of an ambulance waiting for their next turn to do the real thing they signed up for? And I think that that's where, you know, you get into department culture and training and you know being proud of being prepared. Right. I think that like you know, not every department is fortunate enough to go to a structure fire every day or every week, or some departments not even every month or a couple times a year. But so how do we have a culture on the department that prides itself in not just doing the job but being capable and prepared to do it if called upon. Right Right, that is the culture that we want to build is that it's not just about the ability to perform in the moment, but it's about the ability to know as you sit in your chair in the kitchen. that if they call, I'm ready to do it.

Corley: No, and I I I dude, you you are you got your finger on the the issue when you saw when you talk about a fire first culture, which is you know we talked about Scott Thompson before we went live, but his mindset of fire first culture. And so often I think part of the issue is when you start looking at your department and say, well, we're just an EMS department that occasionally goes to fire And it's that mindset that allows the the mission creep to come in and then say, well, what are we recruiting for anyway? Yeah, of course we can drop the standard. Because this if you start believing that as your mantra, then of course the standard is going to lower Jake Riggs: Yeah, and and I think that the reality with that is like it doesn't matter how many EMS runs, medical runs, you run in between your last job, right? How many since the last fire? Like when the fire tones go off You are the last hope. Like there's nobody else coming. So you better know how to force that door and pull the line. And you know, you know, this we could easily segment this into my mental health spiel, but it's like Man, the things that haunt people in this job is when you are supposed to know how to do something and you fail to do it in the moment.

Corley: Dude, dude, one thing. And segue into it because that is I cannot tell you how many times I've had a late night counseling session in the in the TV room. Everybody else in the station is asleep. And it gets down to it. The person was dealing with a moral injury of they felt like they were not prepared enough when their moment came up and they were supposed to know how to do something. And that's what they were wrestling with more than anything else. Not, you know, the the trim the traumatic things they saw, the emotional damage and all of that was there. But that when you really got to the meat of it, and when you said that, brother, so let's just segue and start talking about that. Jake Riggs: Yeah, I mean That that's it, right? It it is like the this is my motivation, right? When I think about why do I come into the station, why do I train? Why do I care? Why do I think that the little things matter? It's because I know that I couldn't live with myself if I showed up and it was my day. It was my time to be the one to do the rescue, to pull the line, to do the thing. And I failed. I I was supposed to do it the first time and it took me three times. I was supposed, whatever the thing is. Like that moment, the moment that would haunt you is what is my motivator on a daily basis to never have that moment, right? I'm terrified of that moment. That moment is the boogeyman for me But I never want to be standing in the in the in the front yard with that mom that says my kids in there and I go, well, I don't know how to do that primary search. I don't know how to do VES. It looks too scary or hot or what and the We think about our abilities, our ability are directly proportional to our training, right? Our comfortability going into that space is directly proportional to the preparation that we had leading up to those moments, right? So does that building with black smoke coming off out of the soffits and fire showing on the alpha side look intimidating? It should look a lot more intimidating to someone that's untrained than someone is trained.

Jake Riggs: So the if if that works, right? If if I could say my mom would be more afraid looking at that building than me, then would someone better than me be even less worried about that than I am? So is that the person I'm chasing? I'm chasing. That ultimate, you know, comfortability based off training. And the competence that you gain along the way is what allows you to do the thing that nobody else can do because you have the confidence that it takes to do that VES above the fire or whatever it might be. And, you know, in that you know, the the calm, right? I always say you can't put the train on the tracks, you just have to deal with the wreckage, right? Our job is to deal with the wreckage, right? We can't whine and cry about what happened. We show up and we deal with what's on the ground. And in that, I can sleep easy at night knowing that when I showed up and it was my day, it was my time to do the thing that I'm paid to do. Now I can perform. And like I said, that moment is the boogeyman for me. I'm terrified of that moment where I'm supposed to be able to do something and I'm not prepared

Corley: No, a huge, a huge motivator for me, especially as I promoted up and my responsibilities became more than just myself and I was making decisions for other people. It was a huge motivator for me was I wanted to make sure I was competent for them. You know, the the people I was responsible for, not the typical them. but the the crews that I was making decisions for, I wanted to be at that that I was terrified. That's probably the best way to say it. That I when my moment came, I wouldn't be prepared to take to My knowledge or my my lack of preparation would leave them in the lurch. And then I'd have to live with that, knowing that. Jake Riggs: And that I I so vehemently believe that that is The biggest thing that us as peers in the fire service can do to support one another in our mental health journeys is preach that competence is is the antidote for these hauntings. Right. Corley: The moral injury. Jake Riggs: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I I believe that competence and training is the antidote for that. And how do we get people to buy into that? that was my next question. That's the question, right? How how do we get people to buy into the concept that the best thing you can do to prevent The PTSD that's rampant in the fire service is making sure that you're dangerously competent, right? and You know, as you work through your career and you gain experience and competence, and you have those experiences where you're like Wow, that was a horrible call, but man, did my crew kick ass and we did everything that we put a possibly done. And you walk away from it saying Okay, that was tragic, but I'm okay. Why am I okay? I'm okay because I know for without a matter of a fact or beyond the shadow of a doubt, not a single crew on this planet could have done any better than what we did. Right? And that's what allows you to rest easy. But man, and and it can be something as simple as, you know. I the classic trope is kind of like I learn more from the mistakes than the things that I do right, right? Sure, sure. And it works in that small scale too. Maybe it's not something that you are gonna like if you're gonna lose sleep over because you've you failed to do a primary search or you you missed a a body out of search or something But, you know, that idea that it's okay to feel bad, right?

Jake Riggs: I think so often we want to be encouraging and and help people through their mistakes that we don't let them sit in the muck a little bit. it like hey man it's on you to be able to throw that ladder by yourself right this is not we're not in the academy anymore this is not a two-man operation man you throw it a 24 foot ladder by yourself Right. And if you can't, if you fail, you should feel bad. Right? Right. It's okay. You should feel bad. And like I'm going to be there right with you if you're thinking about a mentorship role or as a peer or a senior guy. Like I'm going to be there right in the trenches with you, helping you learn to do this if you care But at the same time, it's okay to hurt on it a little bit. It's okay to feel the sting of like failing to do the thing that you're supposed to do Right. We come in so like Mama Bear and want to put the band-aid on the boo-boo, but it it's okay to let it sting a little bit, I think. Corley: So in your opinion, have we gotten too soft in our in our in our accountability just to each other? Is that

Jake Riggs: Ha ha yeah, don't get me going on getting too soft, right? I I'm the youngest of seven, so I I I And so when I say I'm tough to default, you had to be tough, is what I'm hearing. I was forced to endure. So I'll give you the story. So I'm the youngest of seven. The next oldest sibling above me is 10 years older than me Me. Okay. So were you a surprise? I have a different dad, so it's half siblings above me. Okay. Right? But yes, probably also. But so here's the reality, right I will tell a story like, oh, my brothers tied me up and they put me in chokeholds and all this stuff. But then you have to frame it by the idea that my next oldest sibling was 10 years older than me. So when I was eight I had an 18-year-old beating me up. Now like it's an adult. It's a little bit different than when your 11-year-old brother beats on his on his 10-year-old brother. Sure. and and God love all my siblings. I have a great relationship with all of them. But at the same time you know, you have to have some grit and you have to have the ability to kind of soak up some shame and accept that like that's a thing that we fail to do in the fire service now because We we are is it is litigious and we're worried about offending someone and like don't get me wrong I want to be kind to people and I want like people to feel welcomed But at the same time, that doesn't mean that we don't have to have accountability for what our duty is. And so if you're failing to meet the duty that you agreed to sign up for, I think that that's often lost. Like Nobody's forcing you to be a firefighter. You signed on the dotted line and decided that this was going to be your career path. Right? If you're not living up to the expectation, then who is to blame? You can walk away at any point Right? Nobody's got you handcuffed to the radiator, right? You you can go. Right. So, you know, the idea that like You can lean on people a little bit and and and and see what they're made of. I want a person if I'm gonna mentor someone I want the mistakes to hurt and I want them to sit in them but then I also want to know them to know they can come to me with any question they have and we're going to work on it together because as long as you're invested I'm invested But at the same time, it's okay for you to like lay in bed at night and think about that mistake you made.

Jake Riggs: I I'm happy with that because that means you care. If you move on, like example of this. So on my on my locker at work. I have a handsaw. It's like a like a wood handsaw. Like you would chop like if you were like an old time you know wood saw. Yeah. I have that. It hangs on my locker door at work. And it's hung there for, geez. Not a picture. It's an actual wood saw. It's an actual wood saw the image right in my head. Zip tied to my door, right? It says Rick's training saw on it, right? And it's hung there for Six years, five years. And because a long time ago, I flooded three saws at a fire. And so the guys on the squad They they gave me this training saw. And at the time I could have taken apart the saw and rebuilt it from the ground up. But for whatever reason that night I was off. And I I flooded one and I panicked. I flooded another one. And so every day I come to work and I look at that saw hanging on my locker and go All right, I'm not I'm not infallible, right? There's still things to learn. Even if you feel 100% confident, like you can still make your mistakes. And I tell you what, man, even though I I could have taken apart that saw and rebuilt it For weeks, if not months, after that, I started the saws every single day, twice a day. Like I was on top of it because I was like, I will never Ever let this happen again, right? And so that saw hangs on my locker. And every day I come to work and I look at it and go, okay, stay humble, right? You still got you there's there's always a chance that you you're not gonna be the man, right?

Corley: but it's powerful and and the the reminder of the saw again the fact that you take it embrace it and use it and now pass it on where is the line i because like you said you said it's it's okay to to Feel like you should feel bad when you screw up. What's where's the line where it goes too far? Is it is it What what keeps it from becoming hazing or I don't know the right word is or bullying? Jake Riggs: I think the so the first off is like the the tone, right? Let's just be honest. Most of us can tell who the who the injured gazelle is of the herd, right? And so generally you're not kicking a man when they're down. I I like If if a guy's really struggling, they're down, we're not going to just beat them into a pulp for the sake of like fun, ha ha, right? if if we're applying, you know Shame, right? If we're if we're applying appropriate shame for a situation, we want to make sure that that person understands that it's not without reason, right? It's like, hey, we'll give you a little bit of grief, but I want you to know full well that like I'm in the trenches with you right okay so like it to me it's a matter of like I'm never gonna like outwardly give someone grief unless I know that they know or I've literally pull them aside and say hey ma'am If you need anything, you let me know, right? I know we're giving you a hard time, but that just means we love you, right? It's gonna be okay. Like, and that that this is why, like I say, go walk in the hallway, look at my locker. This is the story of the saw, right? Everyone has their days. It's going to be okay. But like I think it's it's that undertone that says we're in this together. We're still a team. Like as long as you care, I care. We're gonna, we're gonna get this figured out. And that is the rub. I think that the rub happens when either people are just straight up like jerks, which is real, right? Sure. No, absolutely. Right. We we It's no different than any other workplace. Just because we happen to live with one another for this time period, it doesn't mean that there's not just like jerks that work with us.

Jake Riggs: Sometimes people are just rude and like that needs to be held dealt with in a whole nother, you know, way. But at the same time, you know, that, you know, shaming, if you want to call it that, you know, is with purpose because you want to instill that in them that It sucks and it should hurt, and we're gonna overcome it and we're not gonna let that happen again, right? And if it does happen again, we'll be right in the trenches with you again as long as you keep caring. The problem is when you do the mistake. Two times, then three times, then four times. And now it's like are you obviously not taking the peer-to-peer member mentorship or the mentorship from your superior, whatever it is. Now we have to have a different conversation and that's gonna be a thing. I mean, I'm as a firefighter, so it's it's not a thing where I'm gonna like you know write someone up or anything like that, but you know, that's when we have to raise it above the senior firefighter, junior firefighter kind of relationship Right. But I I'm so die hard on this idea that like as long as you're in, I'm in, and we're in the trenches and we're gonna get through it. and you know, I don't think I don't know where the limit is. I think the limit is probably personal to to individuals, right? Some people can take that shaming or and that like grief a little bit better And so you have to be cognizant of it, right? If you're not, we're not out here trying to like get people to quit or have them really like, but like just instilling this idea that It's when you make mistakes, it's okay for it to hurt a little bit and get a little poke at it and just to to remind you that it it hurts and it's supposed to hurt and that's okay we can overcome it, right? Right

Corley: on and what I like about what you said there is I don't know if you even realized about how many times you said we we're we not it wasn't you screwed up and you did this but I mean there is some of that in there because there is you and I and it wasn't I there wasn't a lot of I Like I'm gonna judge you. But you said we, we're, we're gonna fix this. We're gonna be in the trenches with you. And that I think is the the key to where it keeps it from being that harassment, that bull. that that you know whatever you want to put on it and if that relationship is there and that's where you can understand how who can take what and they understand the motivation of the tone of where it's coming from and that's where I think is where the power truly lies in building that culture amongst your people. Jake Riggs: Yeah, and and and like I said, I think that that that framework Is so important that idea that like they have to know where your relationship lies before you you can't just like start laying it on thick some person you don't know at all. They're like, who the hell is this guy and why is he such a jerk, right? You have to have some level of awareness to say you gotta establish some sort of rapport with this person so that they know that you're in it with them. And so like I said, that's another reason why I love that saw because it I've I can't tell you the amount of times that I've pulled a new guy aside and said, it's okay, look at the saw.

Corley: It's a reminder, right? I've loved the conversation so far. I want to include the audience here because we've been talking about and I want to get some of their questions. Mackenzie Spooner said, question. How do we explain that to our chiefs? upholding the standard that not all that apply are meant for this job and not hiring just to hire. How do we explain that to our chiefs? Jake Riggs: I mean, I would love to think that our chiefs remember the when they used to be firefighters I think that that's a thing that's all too often lost, right? I think that we forget that, you know, these people that have been sitting in an office for the last 10 years used to drag hose, right? They Most of them used to be firefighters. I mean, the lion's share. I don't know. I can't think of a department off the top of my head that has a straight up administrative chief that has never been involved in the fire service at all. So I think that like humanizing them to the point of saying like somewhere down underneath that white shirt, they understand what it means to like be desperate for a partner they can trust, right? And desperate to accomplish a goal on the fire scene. So I think that it's it's a matter of trying to it depends on the size of your department, right? If you work on a if you do work on a department like New York City, right, you're not gonna have any communication with the operational department It's it you really have to focus on inside of your station. You know, a department of my size, you know, so we have 16 stations. you know, I know the chief personally, but at the same time, I don't see him on a regular basis at all, right? So he knows who I am, I know who he is. If we ran into each other, we could talk, but at the same time, I'm not sending him a text about anything, right? There's no way. so depending on that, you have to play your chain of command, play in your sphere of influence to try to effect change. And and ultimately I think what you can control is the standards that you keep in your house and in on your crew. Right. And and I think that that ends up being the most important thing, right?

Jake Riggs: I'll say we have 16 stations and I can't tell you what's going on at the other 15, but I know the standards that we keep at my house Right. And and and and so you might not be able to create change across the whole state, the whole department, or it might take a long time to do that, but you can demand a quality around you and on your crew and in your station and and not only demand it but also live that and foster it around you right Corley: And it starts with living it, because if you don't live at first, then you're just making noise out of that hole in your mouth or hole in your face. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, yeah. But people see right through that, right? Absolutely. You gotta walk the walk, right? Yeah. The only person you fool is yourself when you try to pull that off. For sure. And and firefighters see right are amazing at seeing right through it. So Greg White coming at you said, with everything, everyone doing search and writ and what made you decide to go down the hazmat route? What advice would you give someone who wants to join squad?

Jake Riggs: Okay. So hazmat route. So this will be my my funny story into hazmat, right? So on the city of St. Paul, right, we have two hazmat rigs. They're they're both connected to a rescue school So rescue squad for the sake of terminology, right? It's a it's a heavy rescue with a pump. So if we arrive first due, second due, we could be an engine. Beyond that, we operate as a truck, right? So that's that's where we work, right? The rig that I work on responds to fires in half of the city. So you get a lot more fires. It's like this appointed position, five years. So As you get on, you're like, oh, I want to do that. Obviously, I want to do the thing where I go to way more fires. That's awesome, right? So if you want to do that, you have to carve out your niche, right? How am I going to differentiate myself on a department of five people or 500 people, right? So in that I go, okay, nobody seems to like hazmat. I could do hazmat, right? And I if I was good at it Then I would be differentiated on this department. I could finally have a name instead of just a number on this 500 first department, theoretically, right? So I take my hazmat tech. At that point I was working for when I got when I first got hired, I was also working on a part-time department at the same time. Took my hazmat tech through there and then I started going to all the federal classes. So I started going to Pueblo and I went to Aniston and I went to Vegas and all the things. And at this, I started talking to a contractor How do you become good at this? Right? Like, I'm taking the classes, but I don't have the experience. I want to like actually know what the hell I'm talking about. and in talking with one of these contractors, he goes, you should work as a cleanup contractor. You'll get way more experience. You'll more you'll run more hazmat runs in a year than you would in your whole career on the fire service. And I go, okay. So I take a flyer. And I send an email to a local cleanup contractor in St. Paul called Bay West, right?

Jake Riggs: and They bring me in for an interview. I had a hazmat resume. I was like, oh, I'm a tech and I have all these specialist classes and stuff. And so they go, we don't have a position, but we want to hire you And they're like, well, what am I going to do? And they're like, we don't know, but we'd like to hire you, right? So they hired me, they hired me part-time. I interviewed well, I guess, well enough that they gave me a job they didn't have So I started, I was the only employee in this whole company that was a part-time emergency responder. So I would like, they would just like send me a text when they had a a cleanup contracting gig and I would go in and and help them with that. And so I start doing that a little bit. And they're like, you kind of know a little bit about this. Like, will you mind like teaching a couple classes? And I'll say, oh yeah, I'll teach a monitoring class and I'll teach, you know, whatever confined space entry class and cut to three and a half years later, I'm the training director for that company. for the whole company. And and so I went on all these hazmat responses and I, you know, so the first thing that this story is to say is like The first thing you have to do is like decide to be about it, right? It's not necessarily the sexiest thing. And that's that's coming from a person who's like made a whole side career off of the idea of you know, teaching hazmat and doing hazmat. But it's not necessarily the sexiest thing, but somebody has to know how to do it. And you can fill a gap that is present because it's a difficult subject and it's a subject that a lot of people avoid. So if you if you make the decision to be competent, you can achieve that. And now you have a skill set that not very many people have. But the first step is just that deciding to be good at this, right? Then it's like seeking the classes. The classes exist. If you want to go to the federal classes. FEMA will send you. Well, they won't send you now because of the government's mess. But but you know, you you'll go federally funded to Aniston and deal with live agents

Corley: And you deal with Rice and Saren class. Jake Riggs: Yep, Ricin and Anthrax and all this stuff down there. Great class. You can go to Colorado and you can be a tank car specialist And a highway emergency response specialist and a flammable liquid specialist. You can go to Anna, you can go to Nevada outside of L or Las Vegas, and you can become a new grad specialist. Like all these things are free if you invest the time and effort into becoming good at them. And then once you have a skill set that other people don't have, you become marketable, right? And and and so when you stand head and shoulders above other people because you decided to care when everybody else just decided to get by. All of a sudden you put in your resume or you interview for one of these squad positions or you try to get into special operations and they look at you and go, oh, this person that isn't like They actually are competent. Like this is a different thing. Like they they didn't just check the boxes. They they dedicated the time and took the effort to actually become competent this thing and all of a sudden doors start opening for you right and so then eventually that if my hazmat story goes on i eventually as i be after i became the training director for that company then i left there and i joined the hazmat guys out of new york i left pay west and i now i work for hazmat the hazmat guys doing their thing. But it's it's just a matter of being like water as Bruce Lee says, right? Be open to the opp the opportunities and go where they where they are, right? Step one, decide to be about it.

Corley: I love that. Decide to be about it. You gotta do it. But you're never gonna get anywhere unless you decide to do it. Thank you for the questions, McKinsey and Greg. Fireman Piv. Wants to know Kyle Piverall question when it comes to inspiring the next generation how can share the importance Jake Riggs: Short circuited. Corley: I I I'm sorry, man. That one's that one's I'm gonna try a second question from Kyle Pivot. I'll go with this one. When it comes to the new generation, how can we help them navigate through the amount of info that is out there being put out? There's a ton of great info and a lot of bad info about the job. Hmm. Focusing on the negativity. Jake Riggs: Yeah, I think that it's it's hard. It it is you have to just like realize that it is hard. There's so much information. And I think that like Watch for the people that gravitate together, right? So like when you see some of these, you know, experts, right? And you see the circles they run in. They lend credibility to one another. So you and it doesn't mean that you there isn't some random guy that no one's ever heard of. that isn't brilliant and has great insight in fire service and like all this experience. But if you're just trying to like start at blanket square one, Look for the nucleuses, right? Look for, you know, you start looking at these things like fire engineering and firehouse, and then look at the people that they've given given light to and then see the people that connect the dots to all those people and that'll start to you know whittle down from hundreds of thousands of potential learning sources to you know less And but it is hard because there's so much information. And then as you gain experience, you can start to become discerning yourself and say, oh wow, you know, at base level, you have to kind of like lean on, I'm just going to trust that you have experience and the thing that you're saying is correct. As you gain experience through your career, then you eventually go, that doesn't sound right, or oh, half of that makes a lot of sense, but I don't know if I agree with this. And you get to be discerning about the things you learn. But you have to like get to that point.

Jake Riggs: I think that sometimes people are so siloed inside of their own spheres, especially on departments like, you know. Perfect example. I'll I'll bag on my own department because I love them all. Right? they oftentimes you'll hear like I don't care what New York does, right? And like I I get it, but also like if we're going to talk about standpipe operations, we would be foolish not to use the plethora of information coming out of New York City. Right. So like just be just because we want to like be proud of ourselves and say, hey, we do a really good job, that's great. I'm I'm for it. But like We would be completely ignorant to not realize that there's people that are doing the job on a different level than us, right? And so if we're looking for standpipe operations, I want to know what New York's doing and what they're doing is correct It's just objectively correct. They've done they've spent more money researching how to do that task than our department budget for the rest of infinity. Yeah. Corley: The frequency, the quantity, the quality, the quality, everything. Jake Riggs: You have to understand that like It would be foolish to not take recommendations from people that have the experience and the budget. Like these big departments, yes, there's a lot of fanboying and like don't get me wrong, I'm on the fanboy club sometimes too, right? It's totally fine. But like we also have to be realistic when you think about like the training budget of New York City might be, I don't know, a billion dollars or some crazy number. What they're coming out of their training department is probably high quality information. You know what I mean? We can't just like write it off because we do things differently here. I hate to break it to you. Wood still burns at the same temperature in Minnesota as it does in New York City, right?

Corley: No, absolutely. Absolutely. No, it's a great point too. Because there is the stigma and the fanboying and all of that right, wrong, indifferent. But Earned, unearned, deserved, undeserved, all that. But it doesn't change the fact that they the quality of the quant the quantity of and the and the frequency with which they go to stuff can't be measured. no one else can compare Jake Riggs: Yeah, so what are you gonna do? Like you would be foolish. You would be yeah, yeah, exactly. Be like, oh, I don't care what New York's doing. You're like, well, you're just being foolish. You're like, you're obviously not listening to the people that are doing it more. Like, let's just Like, why do we have to rewrite the book when they already wrote the book? Let's just go take a look at it, right? It's fine. Corley: And it's okay to apply your your spin on the holding on, yeah. For sure, right? But the difference is there is nuance, but it does burn at the same temperature. Jake Riggs: Yeah, but it's like let's let's like take it and augment it for our response, right? Like perfect example, like we run cross lays in in Minnesota They don't run cross lays, they run static beds in New York City. So we're not going to adopt their hose deployment methodology. But at the same time, you know, there is things that they do that we can easily adopt. That makes a lot of sense, right?

Corley: I love it. Okay, a lot of a lot of topics and questions still coming from the from the audience. I want to get a little bit into the story of the reward you received. The fire story surrounding the awards, yeah. If you don't care, I mean unless you don't know what's the thing. No, it's good. I mean I've told the stories before, I'm happy to. Jake Riggs: so June 3rd, 2024. Right. So man, it feels like 20 years ago. This is just over two years ago. I was working a mutual. So I was working a trade on the rig that I work on squad one, but I was on a different shift at the time. And so about 1. 30 in the morning, we had Report a structure fire comes in. In route, we have reports that there were potentially people inside. This house is gonna be like we're second due to it. So it's it's a little bit to the north of our station. But we were we were second we arrived I don't know 15 seconds after the first U engine and so on the our squads we run five I was sitting on the outside seat in the so the opposite of the the fire side. Fire is on the driver's side. I was sitting behind the captain.

Corley: Okay. Jake Riggs: And so in route we get reports. potentially people inside, definitely a fire, confirmed fire. We arrive on scene. White smoke coming out of the front door. It's definitely a fire. It's not like ripping fire shooting out the front door, but at the same time, there's unequivocally a fire going on here, right? so the way it would work in the squad is the middle guy and that the address side would deploy a line. We were second due, so we're gonna operate as an engine. I would break off at with irons and then I would go and force our entry make way for the other engine and for us, right? At that point, we were positioned at the squad to be the backup line. And they were end up, they would be the primary line. Long story short I get up to the front door, force the door, no problem at all. And so there's this moment that's clear as day in my head. I force the front door, I pull it shut. And there's a lull, like the world is quiet for whatever reason. And I hear over the a over the radio, like there's an open line. It sounds like there's people inside Right. So I hear this. Right. And at this point, I can't I can't remember off the top of my head if we knew for sure there was children or something.

Corley: Someone said over the radio there's people inside. Jake Riggs: dispatch comes over. There's an open line, like the callers has an open line. Okay, okay. We can hear people I want to get clear. Yeah. Yeah, we can hear people inside. So at this point I look back from the from the front stoop down. And so for the sake of reference, because I know the fire nerds are gonna want to what did the building look like, right? So it's like a like a probably a 1500 square foot home walkout walkout basement. fire was in the the front side, like in the alpha side living room as you would where it would be Right. So layout wise, you walk in the front door, living room, off to the right to kitchen, shotgun style hallway down the middle, bedrooms all and kind of like a horseshoe around the central hallway Right. There's a there's your layout for the firefighter doesn't care. and so from that point I forced the door. I hear over here we have a open line. Sounds like people are inside the house Corley: Okay. Jake Riggs: I turn, I look down. The engine is kind of working on deploying their hose line. I look back and I see My guys deploying their hose line too. Neither one of them are charged. They're both like in the process, but I I have a lot of faith in my guys at the very least. I know they're gonna get this hose line in short order, right? So at that point, I make the decision to go in the house by myself. So it's it's complete zero viz, but not super high heat. High enough heat that I thought about it. Like, is this a good choice or a bad choice to be in here by myself? thank God I'll I'll say spoiler alert like my chief gave me full backing. Like I I at at the post incident debrief, I said like you know i made the decision to go into this house by myself i kind of accepted the idea that i might get in trouble for it but i felt comfortable and i felt like it was necessary to do at the time Chief said, good job, we support you, right? Which is great. Because at that time we were just on the on the heels of relatively on the heels of the situation in Atlanta where the guy got remember that?

Jake Riggs: Oh yeah, Dwyer? Yep. Yep. So so we were right on the heels of that within a you know a year or two. So that definitely was you know a thought process. but anyways, so I go in What's that? It was playing in the back of your mind. For sure. Yeah. I think, oh, well, we'll deal with this. Right now the duty is to go deal with this problem. It's not to worry about whether I'm gonna get in trouble or not Right. so I go in, feel off to my right, find a kitchen countertop. I recognize that's gonna be the counter. That means bedrooms are in the back. So I go down the hall, bounce across the hall. There's a the so the fire is in that front living room in the front, what would be the Bravo side of that room on the front side of the house and so as I'm making my way to that central hallway, it starts to heat up. Zero viz, right? It starts to heat up. And then once I make the hallway, it starts to cool down. So okay, I mean like we're we're trending in the right direction. There's not more fire behind this, probably. So I take a left turn in that first bedroom. I start my search. I come around and I feel something. And like at this point, I, you know, I had pulled cats and dogs and stuff out, but I had never pulled anyone, right? Like not a person. So if I'm being honest, my first inclination was despite the fact that we knew that there were people inside My first thought in my head was, oh, it's a dog or something. I recoiled. I remember this. I reach back forward and I find, I touch it, ends up being a child So I grab that child, scoop her up, and take her out the front door, hand her off, immediately retrace my steps back into the same bedroom, search again, find a second. pull that kid out, bring them out to the front door. About that time they had the hose lines in place and they were starting to put water on the fire. I go back in bunk beds up to the top bunk, find a third, bring that one out, and at that point, no one was there. There was I was handing these kids off at the front door and now there was no one there to hand the kid off to because the scene was chaos.

Speaker 1: Sure. Jake Riggs: Sure. Unbeknownst to me, you know I found the first, I found the second, but then the other crew members started doing searches. ultimately we ended up pulling six children and a mother out of that house. and so back to where I was at, right? I go out that front door and nobody's there. So now I'm like, what do I do? I remember hearing over the radio that they were staging ambulances to the south. So I just gr held this little kid up to my chest and I kind of went on the jog down the block. And I eventually found a circle where they were doing CPR on the two other kids that I had pulled out at that point. So I pull my mask off, I start doing CPR, and then I hand that off to somebody else. and I go back and I figure, you know, I'm more equipped to continue with this search. We have no idea. I don't know what's going on. All I know is that Everywhere I look, I was finding people in this place, right? so I run into a district chief on the way back and says, how many did you find? I said, I found three. He said, okay, we found at least two more, but we can't we found a mom, but we haven't found a dad. Go find me the dad. Right. So I go back into the house and I search. I do another primary, another secondary, looking, looking, and I can't find it. ultimately the dad ends up not being home.

Corley: Okay. Jake Riggs: But so in that I ended up pulling out three children. my buddy Mason ended up pulling out two. A friend of mine, Joel, ended up pulling out the mother with another kid, Captain John Rule. And so, you know, this effort was Herculean, right? So it's like I always say like, yes, I got me and Mason co-won the Minnesota Fire for the Year. Me and Mason co-won the award of valor from Firehouse Magazine Right. So the first thing I always say and I will I will never back down from is this idea that like I ended up being the mouthpiece, I ended up being the recipient, but like the fire department, the people that responded that call, right, are the people that earned this. Like I was involved in this in this rescue operation for four minutes, three minutes, right? We had we had crews transport multiple pediatric arrests in the same ambulance. Right. We had a firefighter, a doctor in hospital couldn't intubate a pediatric child in arrest. And one of our firefighters, SCBA still on his back Asked the doctor if he could attempt it and got the tube on a kid in hospital because the doctor couldn't do it. Like it was this effort by the St. Paul Fire Department that is like I'm like I'm humbled beyond belief that I got to be a part of it And so while yes, I have the award and you know it's not mine, it's ours. I just happen to be a spoke in the wheel. And, you know, I'm so proud of the people that were there. You know, the fact that we could go, we're dual role, right? We talk about this EMS and fire, right? Me going inside and grabbing those kids doesn't do them any good. If I don't have someone to hand them off to and actually provide life-saving care to them, right? So ultimately through this, you know, we we pulled six kids out and a and a mother and Two kids lived and the mom lived. The other kids unfortunately passed. But it was very big culturally to them. They were Hmong. So The the family was able to get them in their traditional clothing. They were able to all pass under the same roof with their family And so the efforts that we put in, you know, we we we pulled seven unconscious you know people in cardiac arrest from a house fire, and we every single one of them regained a pulse based on the efforts that we we we gave them.

Jake Riggs: And so, you know, I I just can't overstate the idea of how proud I am to work for a fire department that can provide that life of that type of care. That type of care. Right. And, you know, I ended up being the figurehead for this and like it it I just am just a a spoke in the wheel, right? But but mo boy has it been a humbling experience to go and and have these experiences and and you know get these awards, but they're not mine, right? They're they're ours. And And just a part of the the big peach the big picture. Corley: No, and I love the the pride you take in your department when you say that and and I and all the points you make. Because it's not just being it's not just you being Aushuck's humble or anything like that. It is I it's it's sincere. And one of the things I noticed When I got to go to Metal Day in New York, it's it's the same thing was because they passed I mean it's F D NY. We already touched on the the how much they did but they're their Metal Day, they call it truck appreciation day because all the truckies get the the medals for making the grabs. But a big point of the whole thing is it's not about the person that wins the award. It's the whole crew that that earned it. It's the whole it it really it's about everything that came together to make it. But they need somebody to be the The mouthpiece, so to speak, or the the recipient. And it's just the same sentiment exists there. It's not about the person that won the award. It's about all of it

Jake Riggs: Well and I I I I I come back to that time and time again, which is this this football analogy, you're a football guy, so you'll you you get it. Right. It's like Nobody catches a touchdown unless the line blocks, right? The line has to block and the other receivers have to run their route and and you know the quarterback has to make the throw to the receiver and the the fullback has to hit the chip block. Everyone has to do their job for someone to succeed. And so, you know, without the without the the FEO or the driver getting the water supply line without the the firefighter in the engine pulling the line all these things have to come into play to make anything work and so there isn't any more glory for anyone than another person because Ultimately, nothing happens unless everyone does their job, right? And and and I I I think that you know we we talk about this EMS fire thing, which I touched on a little bit and I got sidetracked a little bit, but this idea that You know, 70 some people showed up to this this scene thinking they were going to operate as firefighters. And they dropped their packs and they saved lives as EMTs and paramedics because our department has the capability to do that, says something That they could in turnout gear do the the the what they needed to do at a moment's notice to go from Oh, I'm pulling, I'm gonna hook this water supply up. No, I'm not. I'm gonna do CPR on a child and then have a successful result, right? In a moment's notice to shift gears. I mean, it's That is a thing that is a badge of honor for a fire department to be that versatile and that capable. Right.

Corley: I love it, man. Oh brother. I should have let off with that story. No, it's it's powerful, brother. It's powerful. I mean that. and the men and the takeaways. The takeaways, all the takeaways. I want to talk about because you give me so much to pick on here and I don't want it to end yet. Well, let's do a little bit on your mental health journey because you touched on it earlier, moral injury and things like that. And I want to I want to touch on I want to we'll go from what you just talked about. Jake Riggs: This is perfect segue. Perfect segue, right? So My mental health journey, like, don't get me wrong, I I am a deeply flawed and struggling human being, as we all are, right? We're we're all just like trying our best. And I think that that's a thing that like I've come to appreciate more than I ever thought I would going through all of the things that I've gone through now. but like I think that very infrequently are people not trying their best. I think that like some people's capacity is different, but I think most people are trying, right? And and And some people are doing better than others, and that's the truth, but most people are trying. And and so on the tail end of this fire, I all of a sudden I had all this fanfare, which is is a weird thing to say in the fire service, right? I I signed up to protect lives and property and like dedicate myself to the trade craft of firefighting. And all of a sudden I was on every newspaper. I did the morning news. Like I sat on the couch in the morning news and it was bizarre. Like I was like, I just signed up to like pull hoses and do searches, right? What am I doing? Right. And So all of a sudden I felt like the whole world thought that I was someone that I didn't feel like I was. I felt like everyone said, man, you're the greatest. Oh, you're so cool and you're, you know, all these things, right? And inside I didn't feel that way. And so the dissidence between those two things just spun me into the ground, right? Everyone says things are great and and and and you know, we're so proud of you, you're the best.

Jake Riggs: And I was like, you don't even know who I am. Right, if you actually knew me, you wouldn't think that. And so all of a sudden you find yourself feeling really alone in that and you know, there was a lot of long-term struggles that I had. I was struggling with anxiety and depression, not so much job related per se, but like just like in my life. And I was working through that relatively fine. You know, addiction problems and all of a sudden when we shine the light on what You know, I was really proud of, I'm really proud of the idea that I'm a competent fireman, but I I as soon as everyone tells you that and everyone's gassing you up all the time the reality of who you really believe you are in your heart of hearts, if that's different than what the world is telling you, it put me in a really hard spot And so, you know, eventually it led to my wife, who, God love her, right? We've been together 11 years in July now, since high school. She's the best. And She was like, you can't do this anymore, right? You you're like, you know, I was struggling. I was at like I I I was what they would call passively suicidal, right? I I didn't want to live, but I didn't want to die I just wanted to not exist, right? And that's like the reality of where I was at. And So what time frame was this, like when you were dealing with this? Last year. Like last last year, kind of like mid-year until like when I eventually left for the Center of Excellence in June. Okay. and eventually it got to the point where my wife was like We're done with this, right? You're gonna fix this, right? You have kids and you have me and and we deserve better than a broken dad, right? And a broken husband Right. And God love her. She held my feet to the fire and you know I made the decision to go to the Center of Excellence. And It was the best choice I've ever made. Like that facility out in Maryland is built for us. Right. It's built. You live in in station houses that feel like firehouses and you're with people that get it. and you know, I spent 39 days there from June until July.

Jake Riggs: And I got my mind right and I I made peace with a lot of my demons in the past and I worked through you know, who I believe that I was and the dissonance between the idea that like what the outside world thinks of me and what I think of me. And some of these preconceived notions I had about myself were not necessarily accurate. Sure. And so Taking the time to sit in the muck and the yuck and the and the bad in a con excuse me a controlled setting allowed me The ability to work through it and come back stronger and healthier and capable. And like there was never a chance I was not coming back to the job. Like I'm obsessed, right? I'm dangerously obsessed with the fire service. And so there was no chance I wasn't coming back, but I was, you know, I was dead set to come back a better version, a more equipped version of myself. and you know, like truthfully, like you know, I mentioned I had seven, I'm the youngest of seven, right? I had an older brother, adopted older brother that committed suicide in 2007 So, like we've we've done this. My family has done the suicide thing. And so even on my darkest days, I was. Sandwiched because I didn't want to be around. I didn't want to feel the way I felt anymore. But at the same time, like there was no way out. I wasn't going to do that to my parents. I wasn't going to do that to my siblings again So I was just stuck. And, you know, God love my wife. She, she said, a done. We're done with this. Right? Right. Go get the help you need. Like, I'll be, I'll be here when you get back. And we'll and And, you know, God love her. She's, you know, that program and my wife saved my life, right? yeah. It's and now, you know, with my platform, with Hazard Class, with the opportunity to talk on shows like this, like Like so often we've we believe because we've been told that the fire service can't be you know, hard charging and tough and you know relentless in our career, but also acknowledge the fact that like I'm a man that's like, you know, not perfect. And I'm I have my struggles and my pains and my aches and my hard days.

Jake Riggs: And that's okay. And we are stronger for admitting it, not stronger by bearing it down deep, like we were told for so long Right. And so just coming on a platform like this, talking about it on my show and and just giving a voice to these topics and saying it's okay to to struggle and like We all have our the amount of people that have come out of the weeds since I I kind of went public with I went public with it right away before I even left for treatment. I said, this is what I'm doing. I'll be back and i kind of like you know messaged my social media throughout my treatment journey made so many good friends just wonderful people man and And like we all have our own journey, we all have our own struggles. And the one of the big things I come out of this with is like, you know, trauma is not equitable. It is individualized. So what hurts you doesn't hurt me and because I don't know the life that you've lived up to that moment So what it it so often we want to say, man, I've been on a call like that before. That didn't even bother me at all. What's this guy's problem? You don't know anything about that person and how they got to that moment, why that call hit them in the way that it did, right? And and so we have to recognize that like there's no equality and This, right? We have to recognize every call, every incidence, every trauma that we experience is individualized to that person based on the idea that they've had a life that was unique up to that moment And it gives you a lot of grace in those moments to say, I don't know you, but I respect you enough that I'm I want to and I want to be there with you through it. And you know, it really just it opened my eyes to giving grace to people that I I maybe previously would not have given grace to in the struggle.

Corley: No, I that word grace, again, when you're talking about our ability to judge each other in the moment or in any g any given moment. And it is the antidote to keep us from doing so. I love the word. I love your story, brother. Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing it. Corley: And I love the juxtaposition that you have there of saying you can be a tough, mean firefighter into the job who wants to be excellent, and you can also be someone who feels things. It's not like the it's an either or. Yeah, it's not, right? Jake Riggs: And I I would argue that the br the I don't want to sound like I'm tooting my own horn, but I I this is not what I intend by. Go ahead, toot. The the bravery, quote unquote, to be vulnerable is tough, right? I think we so often are like, I'm a man, I wear cowboy boots and I don't feel anything. I will I watch John Wayne movies and whatever, right? And it's like, hey man, to admit that you're hurting is really hard. And if you're willing to do it, that means you're strong, not weak, because you're you're comfortable enough in your own skin and who you are to be vulnerable. And to be vulnerable with the world is hard. Okay. the one thing that I will tell you though, like going to that the center of excellence, man, opening up and being vulnerable. Living a life of vulnerability breeds vulnerability around you and in that breeds deep, deep relationships. Right? If if you are willing to be vulnerable with the people around you, it opens them up to do the same. And when two people are vulnerable together, that relationship, the quality of that relationship is unmatched.

Corley: Man, you're talking about some soft skills with some firefighters here. I don't know. You know. Hey, if this if this firefighting redneck can figure it out, like we all got hope, right? No doubt about it, brother. No, it's a powerful thing because it is the key. I think. The key to deep relationships, like you said, I think that's the the key. We'll use that word again. I think that's the key to it. Is the key to understanding the key to it is that vulnerability. No, it is. It's a strong story, brother. And I I really do appreciate you getting that message out there. So I'm looking to see. I then there's so much. That means that we're gonna I'm gonna have to bring you back again. That's just all there is to it. Too much there. I'm gonna look at the questions from the audience and I'm gonna see If I there are there are still plenty sitting there. Fireman Piv, Kyle Piverall was awesome. And he said, random question. I see Jake has tattoos. How can we help change the mindset and feelings towards tattoos? How do you feel on the on the on where the mindset is towards tattoos? I feel like it's changed quite a bit. I will tell you so I I got my first tattoo.

Jake Riggs: 17 years ago, maybe? Okay. Something like that. oh maybe I'm that old? Man, I'm having that old I think. But when I got my first sleeve, I was the with with the exception of my older brother, I was the only person I knew that had a sleeve tattoo. Right. And now I'm covered and I know other people that are covered on the on the job. And you know. I don't think that it's like my wife, but me and my wife have been together since she was in college. She went to college in Iowa. And I used to drive from the Twin Cities down into rural Iowa to go visit her in college. And I would stop at these gas stations to fill up. And it was like, you know, the mafia had rolled into town. Like people are like hiding their kids and like And it's not that way anymore. I think most people understand that like, I mean, my the only exception that I have to the tattoo clause is my mom has made me promise that as long as she's alive, I won't get my face tattooed but i have my neck tattooed that was an addition recent that's the most or is it the most recent pretty close but i i mean a person that's tattooed like me right i don't see any difference in my life. And I think that it's preposterous. Like if we think about the idea that like how common is this talking point? We want to have firefighters represent our community Right? This is the talk talking point, right? Sure. I heard it many times. So many times. Are members of our community not tattooed? Right? Like like do we want to actually be representative? Or is this a race issue or is this like a cult or like a cultural expression? Like, do we actually want Are firefighter to represent our community? Because if that's the case, then it would be ridiculous to not think that we should allow tattoos in the fire service. Because We're definitely protecting people with tattoos. Like I don't know if I go on a call and I I kind of work in the hood. God bless them. I love them. I love where I work. And I don't know if I go to a single call on a daily basis that I'm not dealing with people with tattoos.

Jake Riggs: tattoos right it's great i like there's a mutual respect the one thing i love about tattoos right if you give me soapbox not tattoos the one thing i don't the one thing i love about tattoos is that It tells you the truth about someone. Somebody decided at some point for some reason to make that decision on their body. Good decision, bad decision, stupid decision, smart decision, meaningful decision, not meaningful decision. Somebody made a decision to do that to them, and it is truthful. They made that decision. They can't lie about it. It's there. So I I love the truth in tattoos. Like whether it's a dumb story or tr or an awesome story. Every tattoo has a story. And so I even, some people, very common question when you have as many tattoos as I have is like what's your favorite? Do you have any ones do you regret? Like that. And so when I think about tattoos that I regret, right? I don't have any, but it's not because I don't have any tattoos that I don't particularly love It's because every tattoo is is a photograph and a scrapbook. It's not like a piece of art on the wall. Right? Like if if you hung art on the wall, eventually you get bored of it But when you make a scrapbook of your life, it always is gonna bring you back to the moment where it mattered. Right. So even if it doesn't matter right now, it brings you back to that moment when it did. And so I I view my tattoos as a scrapbook of my life much more than art hanging on a gallery wall.

Corley: I love it. I love the answer. I love the soapbox. So thank you for going on. I love a soapbox, dude. Oh, brother. And then the last question from the audience here that I'll pull out is Rob Reed wanted to know, everybody's heard the whiteboard episode, and that's hard to compete with. But where do you start with your new guys? How do you prioritize training brand new firefighters? What do you start with when you're training brand new firefighters? Jake Riggs: Brand, brand new. The first spiel I give everyone, you could ask every person. We have a formalized mentorship program in my department. You could ask every single person that I've formally been a mentor to. The first speech I give you is You have three years to be as stupid as you want, right? Every single question, ask every single question. It only will raise your stock, right? So the first lesson I would teach any new person is you have the benefit that everyone thinks you're stupid right now. So nobody is going to care if you ask questions. So ask every question because you have the opportunity every time you ask a question, they're going to realize that you care. And when you care, your stock goes up because people respect people that care. And so like early on in your career, ask every single question you possibly have. Some for some reason in new people's minds, they think, well, if I ask how to load the hose, then they'll think I'm stupid because I don't know how to load the hose. I'll key you in. We already think you're stupid. It's okay. We'll teach you how to load the hose correctly. And then you won't have to wonder anymore, right? It's fine. But I'm When new people come in and bombard me with questions, I'm thrilled, right? Because you care. Ask every question. I will sit and talk to you until 2 a. m. Let's go, right? So that is the biggest thing I try to instill is like have a culture of learning, have an attitude towards learning that you're not so afraid of your own personal ego that you get in your own way when it comes to navigating the difficulty of this job because it's a hard job. There's so many things to know. And there's so many things you're expected to know at a high level.

Jake Riggs: And so like I said, if if I could boil down my new guy spiel to anything, ask questions. Ask so many questions And when you're asked that many questions, ask more questions because everyone around you is going to love that you ask questions. And here's the reality. You should always ask questions. But 10 years in, 12 years in, if you're still asking me how to force an inward swinging door, we're going to have some questions About you, right? But on that in that first couple, two, three years, man, people are going to be stoked that you're asking questions. And so don't think that your stocks going down because you're asking questions. It's definitely going up. Corley: Love it man. And that I hope dude this has been a this has been a gold mine. I've I've really, really enjoyed the soapboxes you've gotten on for the different things, man. That's been great. No, I mean that in a complimentary way. I hope you take it that way. Yeah. And so one of my favorite questions to ask on the scrap is book or books that you think firefighters should be reading Okay. It doesn't have to be a firefighting book, but I do like to hear what books people should be reading.

Jake Riggs: Okay, I'll give you one firefighting book before I move on to my others, right? Okay. The quintessential firefighting book to me is the book of Andy Okay, right. If you haven't read the book of Andrew, it's the compilation of every writing that Andy Fredericks did. And you're gonna read it. And if you haven't read it, you're gonna be like This is all the stuff that we do now. And like he was writing about this 30 or 30 years ago, 20 some years ago. So the book of Andy, it's available online for free. I know that I think Fire Engineering sells it now to like. Corley: The official book of Andy came out in 2024, yes. Jake Riggs: Yeah. But I had I had like the PDF version before that existed, and it looks like like It's highlighted crazy. Like oh yeah. It's the best. The book of Andy, if like this is another mentee gift I'll usually give my menes. Give you the book of Andy Right on. Another big one, not a firefighting book, but man, every firefight I've ever recommended to loves it. Tried by Sebastian Junger. Yes, Junger. Right. Tried by Sebastian Junger is unbelievable. It talks about the importance of belonging to a community and the importance of adding value to the community. And so it seems to really resonate with people in the fire service. Absolutely. Great book.

Corley: Great book. Jake Riggs: The Mission, The Men and Me by Pete Blabber. Right, if you haven't read it, Delta Force operator, Delta Force Commander talks about his leadership styles and how to lead a team and care about a team. unbelievably great. Book. I'll give you one off the beaten path. a book called An Arrow Pointed to Heaven, right? Corley: An arrow pointed to heaven. Jake Riggs: Pointing to heaven Corley: Pointing to heaven. Jake Riggs: Give me the gist of that one. Yeah, give me the gist. So it is the biography of a Christian music artist named Rich Mullins. Rich Mullins. Okay. Yep. And so I love Rich Mullens because, you know, I'm a Christian and he was a damaged guy. He was a chronic alcoholic. And but he was like wholly devoted to God. And so he lived this life of dichotomy, of it would be so easy to cast him out and say you're damaged goods and no good. No one wants you. But also he had this heart for God that was undeniable. And so how do both of those things coexist? And he wrote some of the most famous Christian songs of all time. And the book is unbelievable. And it's about his life and his his journey.

Corley: It's amazing. Okay. Jake Riggs: yeah, that's my recommendations for now. Okay, Ran. I didn't have a thousand more, but I love it, dude. Corley: I love when I get a reader on here and I love when they're passionate about it So I'll have to add the arrow pointing to heaven. I'll have to add that one to my to my ever growing, ever growing. I might not make it through the list before I run out of time on the planet list of books I plan to read. Yeah. But So we do a thing here called the five questions for firefighters. It's five questions for you, the firefighter, and there are no wrong answers. There are only your opinions. The points are arbitrary. They're passed out by me with the help of the audience. So Jake Ricks, are you ready for the five questions for firefighters? I am. Number one, you can do, you can be anything in the world except a firefighter. What would you choose to be? Jake Riggs: So I had one originally and then I realized that it's so cliche on this show that I won't even do it, even though it is probably my true answer, which is I want to be a top gun pilot. I'm obsessed with fighter pilots. But I won't do it because too many people do it.

Corley: I get that. Jake Riggs: I'm obsessed. One thing that's so hyped in this, I I haven't really told very many people, but I'm up to potentially fly with the Thunderbirds in July Well really I might get to fly in an F-16. It's in process of maybe happening, but dude, I'm so upset. I mean like I can't even believe it. I'm obsessed. But okay, I'm not taking top gun pilot. Because of that reason. Corley: I respect that. I respect that. Jake Riggs: Monster truck driver. Okay. I did not see that coming. What? You you didn't see that. Look at me. I didn't say I shouldn't have seen it coming. I just didn't see it coming. Monster truck driver. You kidding me? I get to go smash a you know A 10,000-pound truck on a nightly basis and get paid to do it? In. I'm in. I've been going to Monster Jam since I was like five years old. It's me and my dad's thing. I'm taking my dad for his 60th birthday to Monster Jam World Finals in Salt Lake City in July. If you couldn't have guessed, I like monster trucks. Look at my face. Right. I love it. Corley: I love it. I love the answer. And it's so congruent with who you are. Easy max points. I may change the question to be you can be anything in the world. except be a firefighter or a fighter pilot and go from there.

Jake Riggs: I remember I remember during covet we had like the the flyover the jet flyovers yeah and I remember thinking like man Everyone thinks my job's cool, and on my best day, it's not as cool as this guy flying this jet over this hospital right now. Like I was like, I felt so jealous. Like, man, so many people are jealous of the fire service. And like, don't be wrong, we have the best job Yeah. As long as you don't include fighter pilot. Fighter pilot. I think that they might they might edge us out, but no, I love I love the answer. Corley: Max points for number one. Number two. I know you struggle with this one, so we'll see. It's job town. It's time. You're in route and responding. You get to slap that tape into that cassette deck, like that movie you mentioned earlier. But what song are you playing while in route? Jake Riggs: I went at nausea around this thing. And we were talking about this earlier, but I have a song that I know none of you you have not heard and no one that's listening to this has probably heard. And it's going to be on everyone's playlist after this because it's awesome.

Corley: Okay. That's a big buildup. I just want to do that. Jake Riggs: It's a big buildup. And just wait. The song is called Mine, Mine, Mine. Corley: Mine, mine, mine, or mine? Jake Riggs: Mine, like like you're mining for coal. Mine, mine, mine. Yep. It's by a band called Wind Rose. They're an Italian dwarf metal band. Corley: It is by my dwarf metal. What is the genre of dwarf metal? They actually not little people, like dwarf, like from Lord of the Rings. Okay, so they they dress up like dwarves from Lord of the Rings. Yes. Your nerd is showing now. I know I spotted them relate to you, Cory. Jake Riggs: Okay, okay. But no, I'm telling you, this is like rowing the boats to war music, right? This is the music that we go to war to. Me and my old captain Coy, who is one of my favorite captains We both bonded over this idea that we listen to music to go to war to. And this is quintessential going to war music. It feels like you're on the long ship rowing to shore. the the song is literally about mining because they're dwarves mining. And I tell you what, you put it on and you try not to get jacked up. you can't.

Corley: I gotta tell a short story. here. I love go for it. I love mine mine mine first of all. All right. There is an internet meme song called Diggy Diggy Hole. It's same band. Same band. Oh it is? Same band, different song. Okay, well then I already know that that's awesome. So me, my my grand my my my dad, my son's grandfather. So my dad, me, my son, and my brother, we all went on a trip to Ireland. Okay, and we we we went to the countryside, we had a rental car, we drove all across, we saw castles, we saw beautiful scenery, we spent a week in Ireland, amazing time together, right? That was just a once in a lifetime trip that that the family was going to do. And my brother drove, me and my dad rode in the back seat, and my son was in the passenger seat and he was in charge of the radio. And he put on early on in this trip He put on Diggy Diggy Hole and he put it on repeat. And he was waiting for someone to notice and get tired of it Okay, that was his that he's a troll. He's a troll. I love it. But what ended up happening is no one would give him the satisfaction of recognizing that they all knew what he was doing. But for an entire week Like the entire every time we drove, it was playing in the background. Diggy Diggy Hole was playing in the background. I'm happy. Diggy Diggy Hole was is a

Jake Riggs: It's a close second. I was going between my mind and digging digging hole. Corley: I would have loved. I wish I would have known if you would have done digging digging hole, you said no one will have ever heard of it. And I would have been able to say, I am a dwarf and I'm digging a hole mind my mind's a little bit more go to war than diggy diggy hole. All right, all right, sorry. We both nerded out there way too much. I blacked out for a second, sorry We have to hopefully that can be added to the Spotify playlist and everybody will be listening to Mind Mind Mine. Okay, number three. Max points, by the way. Two for two. Cold weekend at the station. Rig checks are done, training is done, PT is done, food is simmering in the crock pot. It's basically there's nothing to do. It's one of them cold. Lazy days at the station. What is the movie while you're clicking through the channels? What is the movie that when you see it, you always stop and finish it? No matter no matter what point it is. What's that movie for you? Rocky four Rocky Dolph Lunger in the Russia, all that, yes, is that the right one?

Jake Riggs: What yeah, you mean the one when Rocky single-handedly took down communism? Yeah. That is what I meant. You're right. Yeah, exactly. Right? If I can change, you can change. It's so good. If that doesn't give you goosebumps Like come on, let's go. America. Like it's it doesn't get better. It doesn't get better than Rocky Four. Rocky Four There's multiple training montages. Corley: I was gonna say, how many training montages? Jake Riggs: I don't know. Corley: A lot. I like that. And the comparison of the two. Jake Riggs: That's Hearts Hearts on Fire is from that one. No easy way out where he drives the Ferrari and shifts gears like 37 times. It's oh, it's so good, man. So, and then the end, man, we single-handedly take down communism and and and you know, win the Cold War. It's it's great. All right. Corley: It's hard to argue with three for three. Max points. Number four, close on the clock. You get one minute to answer. If you go over the minute, you don't get max points. If you give more than four, there are four people on Mount Rushmore. So four people on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service. And go.

Jake Riggs: Andy Fredericks. That's a no-brainer. Ray McCormick, I wouldn't be in the fire service if it wasn't for his 2009 FDIC speech. Kurt Isaacson. Ike is, you know, you watch that guy speak and you want to run through a wall. He's unbelievable. and then Stephen McCaffrey, aka Bull Bull from Backdraft. We never said they had to be all real. If that doesn't you know light a fire onto you, there's no way we're making it through this list without talking about backdraft. So obviously Steve McCaffrey's got to be on there. That's my list, and I'm sticking to it Corley: And I think all those, every one of them would be proud to be on the on the Mount Rushmore with Bull. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. So No, that's a that's an impressive that is an impress it's very similar to mine. But that's very similar to mine. So except for I never put bull on there. That's a brilliant move. I don't think Bull's ever been put on there before. Well, you know. I'm not sure there's been a fictional. Sam might Sam might remember one. He can tell us if there is, but I don't think there's ever been a fictional firefighter. So that's what Wow, we're setting records here. You're setting precedents I love this. Final question. Number five. Heavy fire searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES? Let's soapbox it.

Speaker 1: VES. Jake Riggs: VES, right? VES. Right. Let's be honest. What is our job in the fire service? It is life safety, right? Other than life safety, everything else is a supporting role. If I have the opportunity to make a grab, I want to make the grab. so don't get me wrong, being on the line is amazing, but at the same time, right, if I have the opportunity to save a human life That is why we are here. That's why we signed on the dotted line to be firefighters. That is why we're here. Everything beyond a search is a supporting role. Corley: Mm. That's a good soapbox. It's a great one to finish it and make five for five max points by Jake Ricks. Absolutely crushing The five questions for firefighters and officially putting 345 scraps in the books. Jake, if someone wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way for them to do so So you can email me at Jake at hazard-class. Jake Riggs: com. That's my direct email. Otherwise, I'm on social media. Instagram is the biggest one, Facebook, LinkedIn. You can follow the podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts. All the videos are on YouTube. All the videos are now on Spotify. I'm co-hosting the Hazmat guys now as well, so I'll be in there intermediate with the hazmat guys. on our website, we have the hazmatguys. com forward slash Hazard class, you can find my stuff there.

Corley: yeah, I'm very accessible. And he's he's such a good interviewer, such a good conversationalist when he's on a show. So go enjoy the episodes if you You man, absolutely. There's so so many. Yeah, again, I could sing your praises, but you you do a really good job. Appreciate it. one thing I always want to know is you have someone that needs to be on. I'm always looking to expand my network Oh and if you don't know this, you're now my best friend. So once you're on the show, you become my best friend forever. So who needs to be on the show that I haven't and maybe I've had them on? Jake Riggs: You can't, you know, but I I think I have one. You haven't had one on. And it's He's been on my show and he's unbelievable. So this guy named Eric Holt. Have you ever heard of this guy? Eric Holt. Corley: It sounds familiar. Jake Riggs: H-O-L-D-T or H-O-L T H-O-L-T. Corley: H-O-L-T. Okay. Jake Riggs: Okay. So check this guy's story out. This guy's story needs to be in like a Netflix documentary. Okay. He was a fire chief in Colorado and I guess I don't even want there's an episode that I did that people can look up, Eric Holt. He was he got fired by his, he was a fired chief in Colorado. He got fired by the board That oversees the fire department for reporting fraud in the election that elected the very same board that fired him Oh wow. He's now in litigation for the last couple couple years. the story's insane. It's it's it's insane. I I mean it's not fire service leadership, it's not fire tactics, but it's a fire service story that's Unbelievable.

Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. Jake Riggs: I was doing the interview with them and my jaw was dropped the whole time. I just couldn't believe that this was real and that it wasn't like front page news all over the place. He goes back to court in like a week or two. I was just talking to him. He's going to do the show again to kind of give us the update. But dude, it's it's beyond belief the story. Corley: No. The people are high yeah, okay, you'll have to go back and read the comments that have been scrolling by. There've been a lot of talk. and there's truthfully, man, you kept their You absolutely captivated them with the storytelling. Unbelievably so. So with all that being said, thank you for the guest suggestion. Thank you for spending the evening. I'll begin my housekeeping. Go to patreon. com slash the vigilante. Become a vigilante. If you're not one, why not? It is the like-minded souls If you're looking for a place to connect with other firefighters who feel like you do, go become a vigilante. The Discord is so active. There's so much going on. It's hard to even explain it unless you're a part of it. It kind of doesn't do it justice to try and explain everything that's happening in the Discord. I had multiple messages today for projects that firefighters are doing and it's just hard to explain. So go become a part of it. One of the best parts of being a vigilani is the after party, which Jake is invited to, not required to come, but I always invite the guests. Show up, and that's where we roast you for your performance on the scrap And so that's something that only the vigilante is going to be a part of. Sam is posting that link as we speak next week on the scrap One of my, I say it every time, one of my top two Stone brothers of all time, Shannon Stone, coming on. I have taken pages and pages of notes. I've taken this man's Nuggets from the right seat class, I don't know how many times, two or three times on purpose. And every time I take just as many notes as I did the last time I took it in. It's it's a I love talking to this guy and getting into the weeds with him.

Corley: He is coming back on the scrap for another dose of leadership and mentoring. And then the week after Dave Dubowski. And that is gonna be awesome. I've been calling him chief for quite a while, and that's an inside joke between me and him. And so he's coming on and so This crap's gonna be awesome. So let's get to the after party. I'll quit talking. Enough jabbering for me. Jake Ricks, thank you for spending your evening with us. I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Of course, yeah. Thanks for having me. Audience, you know the scrap does not happen without you. You make every episode magical. Thank you for your questions. Thank you for your insights. Thank you for showing up and watching And remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tones stay silent unless it is burning. This job will never be safe. So stay smart out there.