Weekly Scrap #208 - Jason Hoevelmann, Leadership and Culture

Corley: And this comes from Marco I Some. He says, James, what does leadership mean to you and how you lead those around you? So very broad, you can you can crush that in any direction you want or tilt it. so go for it. Speaker 2: Yeah, so like I said, I'm not a company officer. I'm just a knuckle dragger right in the back of the squad. But I think leadership is we kind of talked about like our seniority system and some of the that you you know you kind of get thrust into and you kind of have to grow into but leadership's just motivating may motivating those around you and then using your experience to to kind of guide the ship. With any any I'm sure everybody who's tuning into the scrap or anyone who will catch us later has had things within their department they see that That you're like, hey, we could maybe do something different, or you know, there's other options out there. That's one of the beautiful things about social media and and Corally, like what you do, is like you expose so many people to you know, people from FDNY and you know everywhere under the sun that you get to see all these different versions.

Corley: Oh yeah. The fire service is definitely shrinking. It's one of the best times to be into the job, without a doubt. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy. And like you know, we're get totally getting away from everything being so isolated and you know, like many years you wouldn't know what's really happening with the neighboring department or one, you know, two departments over and now it's you you You can, you know, be someone will send you their engine company operation manual or their search company, you know. I can have Clackamas' searches search company manual and know exactly what they're doing. Corley: What is your favorite? Fire service tradition. Speaker 2: I don't know if it's technically a tradition, but I love the cooking and eating together. That's something that's like, I don't know. There's nothing better for me than you know eating together at the firehouse and then sitting at the table for two hours talking afterward. Or I don't know. I just love how it brings people together. Corley: That sit-down together fellowship bond over breaking bread. Speaker 2: There's so much there's so much other tradition stuff that ties into it too. Like Like I you think about just like the discussion at dinner or or the meal and then the discussion after. and it's like there's like the mentorship parts and there's the debriefing incidents and there's like all these different things that

Corley: come as all part of that that's the during the meal prep there's someone chopping veggies and someone doing this and the cook who's telling people what to do and and people that's one of the reasons why and and I I don't want to tirade but you got me going is I I hate when they remove the day room from being next to the kitchen where it's all together. Speaker 2: Yeah. Corley: And they build these firehouses where the kitchen is off by itself and then it's separated from everything else. Speaker 2: Yeah. Corley: And you have to actively go in there to to hang out with the cook. And it just it just attacks that tradition, you know, subconscious, not subconsciously, like systemically, the the structure of the building attacks that tradition And it sickens it. Yeah. But not the point. I love your answer, Max Points. Awesome. One of the greatest traditions in the fire service, man. Yeah, fit to fight fire. John Spear says cooking and eating together is one of the strongest ways to address mental health. It cultivates we are all in this together mindset. No, great one. Great one. yeah, you got me fired up. Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance. It is weekly scrap number two zero eight My guest tonight is Chief Jason Hovelman. He is a career fire chief with the Fluorescent Valley Fire Protection District in North St. Louis County. He started his career over 35 years ago as a junior firefighter and has been lucky to have made this his vocation and passion. He lectures across North America on leadership, officer development, company officer decision making, and tactics. He's got degrees. He's got MBA. He's got certs. He's got papers. He serves on the FDIC advisory board. He is leaving the fire service better than he found it. Chief Hobelman, it is absolutely my honor to have you back on the scrap for episode number 208. Welcome, my brother.

Chief Jason Hovelman: Thank you so much, and thanks for the introduction. It's an honor. to be here again. I'm really excited to to talk with you tonight. Corley: Excited to have you back. You were one of the OGs. Like I think you were we were talking about it before. You're like the 23rd guest I think. So very, very early on in the scrap Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah, yeah, you've blown this thing up since then, man. It's been fun to watch. Corley: It has has gone garnered a lot of support. I'm lucky, lucky person. anything I missed in the intro? Anything you would like to add? Chief Jason Hovelman: No, that's perfect. And other than I work for the best firefighters and paramedics in the country. And and I say that everywhere I go and I hope any chief says that. But If anybody's watching, I really feel that way. I'm so fortunate. Corley: And I love the phrasing you use there when you say I work for them. That's awesome, man. It's good, unbelievably awesome sentiment. audience, please get your questions primed and ready for Jason and myself. This one should be a good one. Kyle Romagus is in the chat. He's already talking to you all. He's in the chat on YouTube and in Facebook. He is gathering your questions and he will throw them at us. in our in our private document here that he likes to send me notes in. And so throw them at him. He's here to make it happen. Smooth board cartel If you are not a member of the Vigilantes, you need to go and join. It is the Cool Kids Club. The latest thing we're doing is of course the V90 project. We have 35 days left on the V90. It's awesome. It's amazing. It's a good time. we're almost done with the first round of the V90, so it's very fun. It's the of course every scrap we have the vigilante after party. So after this thing is over, the vigilante is gonna meet up and critique Chief Hobelman, Jason, as on his on his job on the scrap. And also just today, in fact, because Kyle Romagas got me it was the twelve forum. We're gonna have a forum, a private forum, where we're gonna come in. Kyle Romagus is gonna be the guest and we're gonna discuss Whatever he wants to discuss, and he assigned them homework today.

Corley: He just assigned them homework, and so we posted it. So it's gonna be a good time with a Q<unk>A with him. So all that being said, if you want to be a part of it, go to firehousevigilance. com. It's amazing. So That gets it done. On to the sponsors, Keyhose, the Hose Experts. Check them out online at Keyhose. com and follow them on Facebook. Affordable drill tower, it is firefighter owned and operated. The only thing that you cannot do in an affordable drill tower is live fire Affordable drill tower. You can repel, stretch hose lines, go through the stairs, go through the floor, do window bailouts, cut holes in the roof props, use the apartment balconies, pump into the FDC or flow water from the sprinkler system Call Steve, eight four four five five tower, or drop an email to info at affordable drilltowers. com. Firestationfurniture. com provides a complete line of quality furniture for your firehouse Firefighter owned and operated. They understand the strain firefighters put on furniture and offer furniture that's built to last. Visit www. fire stationfurniture. com for more information. So there you go. Bills are paid. It's time for us to get after it. Everybody's logging in. They're still logging in I can hear Jason getting switched. Yes, getting switched from the truck. There we go. Sounds good on faith. It will do. All right. Everybody's logging in. All right, Chief. Are you ready? Let's do it. First question out the gate coming from me and then the audience, please, please, please throw questions at us. Can you share a pivotal moment from your 35-year career journey that strongly influenced your approach to leadership in the fire service?

Chief Jason Hovelman: I can. There there's two that come to mind, one as a volunteer and one as a career firefighter. First a volunteer, a rural county that I grew up in and volunteered in all my life until just a few years ago, had a chief named Bill Homick. And he he was he retired as I forget almost 40 years as a fire chief of volunteer fire company in Washington, Missouri. phenomenal volunteer fire department, as professional as you can ever imagine. But he was always on the forefront in our region of officer development and training. And and what always struck me about him, and I was much younger than Bill, God bless him. But the way he held himself and talked to people and that the way he always would approach a junior firefighter that had questions or was nervous or doing something for the first time. Always stuck with me how he dealt with people. with who he didn't know or wasn't as familiar with. But he was always moving forward. And I I think back to about seven years ago in Engine Ice Training, we were doing a a water a hose ops class at his department and he was a chief and all hands on extended lines up the stairs down the stairs big lines little lines And he he got on the hose. He he was moving line. He wasn't doing it all day, but he was out there moving line. And that just was something that always stuck with me. And so he had an impact. Those two moments, one as a career teaching and the other as a volunteer, have always have always really stuck with me. been a guide in in certain respects to some of my philosophies.

Corley: Just mentor, just a mentorship? Chief Jason Hovelman: Just huge mentor and and always remembered you once he met you. Yeah. Corley: Oh wow. I would yeah. Chief Jason Hovelman: You know, I don't know how people do that. I I'm not good at that, but he always remembered you. He would remember things that I that you wouldn't remember. just always invested in whoever he was in front of. Corley: I've always wanted to be one of those people that could recall names. that, you know, and and where I met you last. I've always like Chief Halton, Bobby Halton had that amazing gift to be able to pull it up like someone he met two years before for 15 minutes and it was unreal. Chief Jason Hovelman: And then dialed a number from memory probably. Corley: Yeah, no no doubt. I'd definitely been spoiled by the by the cell phone without a that that's ruined it. All right. Sounds good on both. Okay, people are saying that sounds good. Sounds good. I love mentorship and plus leading by example, just the leading by example, which in turn lets you know to lead by example. leadership. Your wheelhouse. You know, no exceptions, leadership. The new company officer, leadership in a dynamic field like firefighting requires adaptability. How do you navigate the balance between traditional leadership principles and the evolving demands of the fire service?

Chief Jason Hovelman: I think by and large, you have to be willing to depart from those traditional leadership methods. because it's been more apparent to me over the last several years, but especially as a chief, is that y you know, you talk about autocratic and democratic and all these different traits, servant leadership even. You can do that to a fault. It needs to be more transformational. It needs to be more flexible. It needs to be more adaptable, not only to the people that you're working for and that you're part of a team with, but also to situations. It's no different than a fire ground. You go shoot, you pull up, you can have an SOG written that's perfect. but that one time something's just a little bit different. You got to have license for your officers and your members to go, eh, this isn't going to work right now. We need to spit pivot and do this. So I think the challenge for leaders in the future, in the dynamic range that they need to have is to identify when to make those adjustments and not to be afraid to do it and to depart from what's comfortable. And a lot of times what that really means is asking for help and and leaning on people that probably maybe have an answer that you don't or know a little more than you don't. And so I think that transformational type of leadership I think is and it's to get talked about a lot more and it's in the books servant leadership had a place on the shelf for so long and it's really important. But you you can do that to a fault sometimes. Oh yeah. And so I think being able to adapt and change. quickly but methodically and calculated to adapt to whatever's around you is going to be the key. And I think it's gonna happen, it's gonna be required for these And up and coming aspiring officers, they're gonna have to do it faster and faster and faster and faster. Just because the nature of our job keeps changing. whether we like it or not, we're getting piled on with stuff. just like it's always been communities are looking to us for so many different things today than they've ever did in the past that are aren't even necessarily you know crisis type. objectives, but no one else can do it.

Chief Jason Hovelman: And so our leaders are gonna have to find themselves making those pivots, I think, quicker with more decisiveness. And we have to, as current leaders, more veteran people in the fire service, we need to allow them to develop that. And that only happens through mistakes and giving away some authority to let them do those things. Corley: Do I love that? Giving away that authority, which is such a key key key concept. I'm gonna ask now now you're a fire chief. You are the chief, you are the man You know what I'm saying? And I don't have a lot of chiefs on the scrap, just by the nature of the position, it's not I don't know the right way to say it exactly. There's not a lot of them that are just plugged in and and So it's a very I hope you take that as a compliment and an honor. Chief Jason Hovelman: I do, I do. And you know, I'm the chief of the department, but I don't run the department. And and I tell people that all the time. you know, I don't I don't run it. I mean, I'm I'm ultimately responsible for it and and there's things I do, but my members run it and and they they have parameters and benchmarks, but the members run the department.

Corley: Right on. Right on. I love that mindset. And and Smoothboard Cartel said it's not dot dot dot sexy. No. No. Chief Jason Hovelman: No, not. Not at all. It's not what people think it is. Corley: Jim Miller said, get Chief Hobelman in front of your company officers ASAP. Get his class there. David Woodward said, my friend, have a great scrap, Jason. So I wanted to throw that out there. Have you discovered, because I want to dig into it a little bit, a way like, because you talk about dynamic leadership, transformational leadership, and then and then of course Being able to apply the one that is needed when it's needed. Have you found a way to empower people to do that? Or have you found basically I'm looking for tips, tricks, hacks? Anything along those lines. And I know we don't have eight hours to go into the entire class, but broad strokes. Chief Jason Hovelman: So real real quick, the things I talk about a lot. Very generic, okay, then I'll get into a few specifics. Sure. Is we have to our our company officers and and our members need to know the responsibilities they carry with them. and and how important they are. You know, Chief Thompson has talked about this, but when we when we bring up new candidates, I gotta be honest with you, we tell the family we may put 'em in harm's way and that they have a responsibility. But the one thing I don't really do is I don't tell them, hey, you're You're going to be a great leader right away because it's a lot of pressure. So our company officers are charged with developing those people. But perspective. Your perspective is going to change through your career. And there's very few of us. that when we started have the same ideas, thoughts, opinions now, 20 years, 25 years later, because our our our our career's matured hopefully. Right. But by and large, we mature. And having the understanding that are we're gonna make decisions today that we made different 10, 15 years ago. And we're gonna we're gonna get attacked for that. But that's the responsibility that comes. It's just I tell people in my classes, Jim, Jim Miller, a great friend, and thanks. You know, I in my classes I talk about, hey, how many of you went to high school? Okay, I'm not going to ask if you finished, but did you go to high school?

Corley: Right. Chief Jason Hovelman: And everybody could raise their hand. And did how many of you did something that could have got you killed or arrested in high school? And most people are pretty okay with raising their hand that's statute of limitations has passed. But then I ask how many have kids that are in high school or going to be in high school? And I ask them if they would condone or allow the things that you did. for the your kids to do and nobody was. Speaker 2: Well what's changed? Chief Jason Hovelman: You're not a hypocrite. You haven't forgotten where you came from. Your responsibility's changed. And so you have to give people license to make diff to change their minds from what they had 10, 15 years ago, and then that's okay. Right? That perspective has to be there and that responsibility From from a you know from a and there's got to be loyalty to the to the job and to the department and to the or community. you can't go out and and bash your department and and and and tear it up because all that does is it tells the organizate the the community how bad it is. But a few specific things that that I think help with dynamic leadership. And I think one of those things is Give your people the benefit of the doubt until they prove you wrong. Nice. Don't don't write a bunch of policies and create a stranglehold on what they can and can't do without permission because of what might happen There are some very few small exceptions to that. But generally speaking, I can remember when COVID broke and we were breaking down what our travel pile, all these things were going to be. And we just kind of came to a conclusion that listen, until until somebody screws it up, we're gonna trust them to do it the right way. our social media and our cameras and different things people may or may not have. Until they mess it up, you know, give them the latitude to do what they want. And the the second part of that is don't solve everybody's problems when they bring them to you. Not right away anyway. Ask some follow-up questions. Ask them what they're wanting, what's the outcome you're looking for? and then ask them why they came to see you. Do they want a question or do they want help solving that on their own?

Chief Jason Hovelman: And more more times than not, all they want is some comments. confidence and some validation that you believe in them and that they're valued and then they solve those problems on their own. and and those are the people that are gonna make those dynamic leaders down the road. And you have to also be willing sometimes to accept failures that are low-risk, low-risk failures, without consequences. other than learning. Not everything should be punitive. If people know they're going to get taken to the woodshed because they made a bad decision. You're never going to develop those dynamic leaders. You've got to give them some license that allows them to fail without being a failure, as I think General McChrystal said in a speech one time. And so those are just some finer points on how do you get this out of people. And the big thing is again, it goes back to giving them autonomy within established parameters and guidelines. what those expectations are. Our mission, everything at our place, our people do a wonderful job guided by our mission statement. And it's something that the brand new employee can recite the day he walks in the door. We take care of people. And that's that's it. That's what our focus is. And however they can accomplish that, they get to do it. You know, I our can all of our officers have credit cards. They're responsible. I don't have to worry about that. They're driving a million-dollar apparatus and in charge of a $5 million engine house. And I'm worried about a $500 credit card. I mean, come on.

Corley: Dude, brother, hold on. Let me I got I'm just writing down I'm not even taking notes, I'm writing down sound bites. That's all I'm doing. one second, I gotta write that Nineteen minutes at nineteen minutes. If you did nothing but listen to the last four minute little shortcuts or hacks or whatever I don't even want to give that that feels like it does a disservice to him. Advice from Chief Holberman right there that last little five minutes if that's all you get out of the show man carpe fuego said it amanda miller said it preach with like four e's jim miller said damn straight so good this is gold again from amanda miller bam, absolutely. Okay. First question coming at you from the audience, actually from Kyle Romagus. Chief, when you took the job as chief, were there any issues improving operational tactics at the organization If so, what were they and how did the department overcome them? Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah, there were. And honestly, a couple of them were identified on my ship when I was a battalion chief. Wow. Okay. We had yeah, we had a couple fires that water supply was an issue. Getting water on the fire was too slow. and and and quite frankly, it was it was The whole the we organizationally we needed to to to make a few changes, but those things came directly from fires that I was the incident commander of and I took that really personally. And so the first year we really kind of nailed down, okay, here's what we're gonna focus on in training. I met with the training guys and I said, here here's my vision of this year that we get the basics done and that we're really good at them because After watching some video and listening to audio. A water supply, we've got to be good at it. We're getting line, getting having benchmarks, getting water on the fire as soon as possible, which means you have to create your benchmarks. for your department. So how fast do you get water on the fire with a with a two and a half or a blint nozzle? How fast do you get to the front door pulling that line after the air break? All those things were put in place. along with SCBA and those three things basically were all we trained on for that whole first year.

Chief Jason Hovelman: There were complaining. There were people that didn't like it. They felt like we did those stuff okay. You ever see that ATT commercial, the doctor comes in and, you know, hey, just got reinstated, you know, you're nervous at me too. That that can't be us, right? So We we worked really hard at that, that water supply, getting getting water on the fire as quickly as possible, getting into the front door as quickly as possible. And and then the SCBA is always on the on the table. And then this this past year we put a real focus on VES and alternate search things. We've trained on it and in actually in November of 2018 our ambulance crew VES'd a house and made a save. Nice. So so I've got video of it. So Just happened to be a news chopper overhead that day and got it on camera. But our our people are good, but sometimes you just have to refocus. And you have to find ways to refine and push that envelope to get better. Right. and so with success, as you well know, can breed some complacency. It can breed some satisfaction. and we have to be able to get past that and say, hey, we're good, but we're never gonna be good enough. Fire service, whether it's leadership, whether it's tactics, whether it's anything, it's like law and medicine. It's a practice Right. Everything we do is perishable. And if we don't continue to practice, and law is a practice because laws change. Medicine is a practice because medicine changes. The fire service is a practice because it changes. Our hazards change. The time we have to mitigate those hazards change. The equipment changes, technology changes. Our craft is a practice and we have to continue to practice over and over again. And and that means the basic things. You know, I don't know, but I would bet and everybody knows who Lionel Messi is now because he's the United States. But I guarantee you that guy takes, you know, six yard shots for an hour and then 18 yard shots for an hour over and over, even though he's the best player in the world. And we have to kind of have that mindset. And as a chief, my job is not to not to necessarily implement that. My job is to remind and refocus.

Chief Jason Hovelman: and and to follow up and allow our people to build those systems to get that done. Corley: I love it, man. I absolutely I had to write down another timestamp on practices. It's a great problem to have, is just writing down timestamp after timestamp. Beautiful thing. I love the mantra proud and happy. Like I'm proud and happy of my battalion. But I'm never satisfied with where we're at. Yeah. Right. And I want them to understand that. I'm proud of you. I'm happy with you. But we're going to keep pushing to figure out how can we get better? How can we get a little better? How can we turn the corner? You know, absolutely, man. Thank you for the question, Kyle. And another one coming at you from Craig Blake. He said, Chief, what are the key personality traits that you are looking for in your future officers? And how do you let those people know what you see? Chief Jason Hovelman: Well, so a couple things. we we We just restarted kind of a leadership development thing in our department this spring. But in my office, I've got a whiteboard that sits across from my desk. And anybody that comes in, and my door is always open. and I probably shouldn't put this over there, but but my door is also never locked, even when I'm not there. files are locked, things like that, but my office is never locked. locked simply because there might be things in there people need. And I'm just not that paranoid. It's just there's not any secrets in our place, right? Unless it's personality. But but when you walk in, there's some ease on that board. And so you talk about what kind of traits do I look for? I look for effort. I I look for effort. I I don't like the word potential because potential is a time and space. It's like taking a picture of a fire and completely adjudicating that fire based on the one photo. Right. Potential is a is a time and period. It's not always consistent or long standing. That's why I've got a little bit of a problem with some of the succession planning. Which anybody can talk about me about, but but effort. Consistent effort all the time. And I'm not talking about killing yourself all the time, but I'm just talking about always having effort, always putting forth your best, always doing their best.

Chief Jason Hovelman: And you know our best one day is up here. Our best down here, it could be down here the next day, and it's like it's like the stock market. Your best changes based on everything. The other thing is in enthusiasm for the job when they come in. No matter how bad the day is, they don't make their bad day somebody else's bad day. everybody has ups and downs, but on a consistent basis, they're they're enthusiastic about coming to the job and they don't make everybody miserable around them They try to be a a positive influence. The other thing is that bring some energy when it's time to do some jobs. They get energetic. They're not moping around. They're not you know, taking as long as they possibly can to do things. They ask questions, which leads me to the next thing is they're engaged. and engagement isn't going to a conference every day you're off work. Engagement is asking intuitive, productive questions about why we do this. Why do we have to Do that. Well, hey, I took a class. Why aren't we doing this? Or can we try this? That engagement. Hey, I read an article. Hey, I met Corley Moore. He was talking about this and the nine L's. Is that something we can incorporate into our leadership program? That's the kind of stuff that that engagement's really important, you know. And then I look for people that empower others. Those that are like, hey, you know, especially those are people on the cusp, right? They've got a little influence, either formally or informally in the organization But they start to shift some of their influence to others and let others shine next to them. That empowerment that really lets people grow and develop and be and g have confidence and self-esteem. Hey, that that Maslow's chart's not a joke, Maslow. Right on. You can see that happen in your organization. And so I look for that empowerment. And so those are just a few of the things I look for. Obviously, we're looking at tactics and skills, but as far as personality traits, those are some of the things I really like to pay attention to.

Corley: All right. One, two, three, four, five. It's a five E's. It's in a few more E's and you have nine E's. Chief Jason Hovelman: I actually got seven, but off the top of my head I don't remember the other two. Corley: No, that's fair. That's fair. Chief Jason Hovelman: I always I end up adding some. And then I these two are kind of the same. Corley: Right. Chief Jason Hovelman: And so then I pair it back down to five or whatever. Corley: No, I love it, man. I love it. Effort, enthusiasm, energy, engaged, and empowering. Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah. So that's beautiful, brother. Corley: I love okay. thank you for the qu a great question from Craig. Absolutely great question. I'm coming here, reading some of this. Boom, boom. No firefighter should ever be satisfied with just okay. That comes from Bob Reiser. Back to basics from Jake Deal. Justin McWilliam said so many chiefs turn their head from poor performance companies. Good on you. Always have to keep learning because fire service keeps changing. Absolutely. Trend upwards always. Quote from Captain Lehman from Carpe Fuego. Engagement is a great one. Haven't heard that much. And Valerie Tessier said this is amazing. I remember she told me how to pronounce her name Tessia, I think. Anyway, you can correct me again in the future. okay. No nice to have a chief that will let their people help build a leadership instead of destroying it. Man, that isn't a a a great observation. We just answered that question. I don't have a lot of fire chiefs on the scrap. I talked about that. In your in your experience, what are some common challenges that fire chiefs are facing today? And how do you think they can effectively be addressed?

Chief Jason Hovelman: So there's there's two paths to this, obviously. One is the operational slash cultural side of the department that is really incredibly important and the other side is the administrative stuff, right? So being able to balance that and and and make it work. So but if you look at the operational cultural side, the challenge for me, I will I can speak for myself, is getting out of the office more. and get into the engine houses and spending more time with our folks. And and I've got battalion chiefs when we have staff meetings and I ask them what do I need to do better. That gets brought up a lot. it gets it gets mentioned and they've got license to to critique me on those things I'll tell a story that's kind of self-incriminating, but it's an important lesson to remember, I think, is that You always hear that I that that that thought process that you're can never be a prophet in your own town, right? Right. And and in a lot of cases that's true. But W w back in this early spring I sent out a a a a letter to my officers, every officer, captain, battalion chief, staff chief, everybody. And just said, hey, we we want to reboot our leadership development and everything else. And I want everybody's ideas. And I gave a template with some things I had. on it and I had one of my members write back it's a Google document so everybody sees what everybody writes and who wrote it and everything And he says it would be good if if if I want to I'm I mean that this isn't going to be a direct quote, but you'll get the point is that our our Our executive leadership or however you put it, teaches the things here that he teaches on the road. And or teach taught taught more here. It wasn't like The the bottom line was that they this person was wishing I was doing the same classes at our place as I was doing on the road. and so I called him. I said, hey man, I said, you know, what's going on? And he had a good point. And I'm not on the road as as much as a lot of people are. But it was a wake up call for me i and I was really happy probably initially you take that personally, right?

Chief Jason Hovelman: Initially you're like, oh, well, what the hell? Corley: Right, right. Chief Jason Hovelman: But but in in reality, what it was was it was a wake-up call to go, hey, they do maybe want to hear what I have to say, even though I've taught it there a number of years. But maybe I do need to to retool this and repackage this and do it in my own department and and give that opportunity to our people because I downplayed my my importance in that role right because I'm a profit in my own town. It's not because I didn't want to. I just didn't put think that that people wanted to hear me, their chief, preach to them. Corley: Right. Chief Jason Hovelman: That stuff. Corley: But you all you also never want like because you have books and and you never want to be like you need to read my book, I'm your chief. You know, you don't want to abuse that positional authority to make them do, you know, you need to attend my class, even yeah. It puts you in a weird weird spot. Chief Jason Hovelman: It was weird. And they and they know where all the skeletons are. are too right so but but in general it was a good good thing and what i was most pleased about was that the honest feedback that came from those those requests. and I'm and I'm still blessed with a group of people who can be honest and and still respectful and productive. and and hold my feet to the fire when they need to. And but that that was a wake up call that hey it wasn't the guy was mad because I was on the road the guy was mad because I wasn't and not mad but he was like hey why aren't we doing that here right why why aren't we doing these things here and he was right. And I'm thankful that he brought that to our attention. And so that side is the culture side, and I need to work hard. And I think Chief Struggle. to to get out and to still feel like they fit in. Not everybody. and and I got a great relationship with the with our department and but it's tough to get out because on the administrative side what happens is you come in And you say, okay, I'm gonna go out to lunch at house two today.

Chief Jason Hovelman: Right. Well then you get a call from the mayor's assistant, you get a call from whoever, and your day never ends up the way it does like it's supposed to. And so then you end up you know, as a chief, anybody that just listened to this as a chief, you do things for your organization that you never dreamed you were going to do, mostly in a political sphere that nobody ever knows about. but you can't use that as an excuse. And so I think that's the thing. So what what's been good for me though is I've I've got a phenomenal officers and members who all I have to do is kind of push out an agenda or push out some expectations or you know our mission and they do it. they're they're just so good. especially on the operational side. I got a couple battalion chiefs that handle all that. My fire marshal hands all the prevention with another battalion chief with community risk reduction. I got good EMS chief and three lead medics. Our captains are just outstanding. And I got a great labor management team. So I I I I I just kind of feel like the rumble strips on a highway, right? So I don't have to do a whole lot until I hear the noise. Yeah. And and I don't shut them down, I just get them back in the middle of the road, right? It's not like stop, put on the brakes. It's like, hey, just slow down a little bit, get back in your lane and keep going, right? And so that's kind of how I look, a little bit of what I do

Corley: Love it. We got a LinkedIn user. Again, every time we have a LinkedIn user, I like to shout it out. But that's all it says is LinkedIn user. It doesn't say the name. But Chief Hobelman is a chief who wants to make more chiefs and officers not ensure he is the most important man in the room. He is the kind of leader who understands that we are all replaceable and we need to prepare our people to be successful with or without us. So I wanted to I wanted to shout that out because there's not a lot of LinkedIn users, even though his But very big very yeah, very big compliment for you, sir. coming and and everybody I know man, I'm sitting here listening to this, taking notes and timestamps, just soaking it in. It's very, very empowering. very very awesome. And but keep get your questions in. Please, please put your questions in. I know it's just fun to soak up. James Platt said, asking for a friend. He said, Chiefs. Go to a leadership conference and learn great tools to use, but as soon as they get home, they forget everything they learned. How do we fix it?

Chief Jason Hovelman: I I wish I knew. I'll I'll be with you. I you know, it that's the other thing I've learned is there's there's not a lot of magic bullets. they have to be willing and they have to care. that that's really the bottom line is You have to go to these conferences and you have to be willing to or but whatever you're learning and and being able to apply it. But I think one of the keys too is, and I've tried to do some implementation and not brought in enough collaboration on the front end, which slows it all down. But so I think that's key, get collaborating with people in your organization that are are eager and want to help on a project or that you can trust. But as far as going and learning these lessons and not coming back and using them, to me it's just laziness. It does take effort, it takes work, it takes pain and sacrifice because it's not not everything's gonna be popular and not everything's gonna work. you have to be willing to try things and then you have to be willing to go, okay, that didn't work, and you shut it down and you do something different. And it do you it doesn't mean you're a bad chief and it doesn't mean anything else. It just means Some things work, some things don't, and if you don't throw it at the wall, it's not gonna matter. But I think more importantly is if you bring those lessons back And you meet with your staff and your labor management, if you have it, you know, and those key players in your organization, you go, here's what I want to do. Here's what was suggested. How do we do it here? And and it's probably not going to be verbatim from what you brought back, but the intent and outcome is going to be very similar. And it's going to be easier to get buy in and it's probably gonna be more productive for your organization. And I think those are some keys.

Corley: Love it. Coming back and just saying this is what I would like to this yeah. Just set speaking the intent into existence. Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah. Exactly. Corley: Almost creates the accountability for it at that point. Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah, I I really like bringing in groups of people and going, how how do we do this? How do how do we get this done? You know, we're we're working on a peer support team right now. And we put a small committee together, a very small committee, who's putting it together. And I had one of the members come in with an issue through the process. And she's like, well, the committee thinks this. And I said, well then that's what we're gonna do. Well, we just didn't know if you'd have I said, listen, I'm not gonna take that authority from your committee. Wow. But if your committee's telling me this is what we're gonna do, that's what we're gonna do. And that's one of those things. Here here was here's my goals as a chief for peer support. the committee figures it out. Okay. I I I'm not here to to to micromanage this committee. I'm here to give support, provide the resources that you need. But if the committee decides this, I'm not going against that. Unless it's damaging, you know, unless it's Sure, sure. But and that was a good lesson for for both of us. It's like You have to learn to to let that authority go. I've learned the more the more authority you can give away appropriately, the more you get in return. The the the the more things you get back organizationally and through your members and and we've witnessed that in our organization easily. We've got people making decisions all day long without asking permission appropriately

Corley: Right, right. No, I'm with you. I I I have blow brother you are preaching by language. I'd like to sit here and love absorbing it. let me ask you this because I it's a question that popped into my head as you were talking about specifically committees, and you said small committee And and have you noticed because you're a chief and I'm sure you evaluate people constantly, you know, subconsciously and consciously, because it's your job. But the doers, you identify doers within your organization. how do you keep from overloading the doers? You know what I'm saying? Just just just overloading it because of their competence and their ability to get things done. Just keep asking more and more of them Does that make sense what I'm asking? Chief Jason Hovelman: It does 100%. So in terms of the committee, like this one in particular, it was a joint committee with flavor and staff. So whoever wanted to be on it was on it. So and then we deal then if there's problems down the road we deal with it later. But we don't have to typically. But as far as the doers overdoing we try to get them I've had conversations with some of these folks about, hey, what can you give up? What what can you give up to someone who you trust? And you start that delegation chain, right? So it's like, hey, you've got all these projects, you're doing a great job, and I'm not asking you to get rid of them, but who's who's somebody that you can maybe task this with? Right. My shop steward and I just did this, he him more than I, with a regional program here in the St. Louis area, getting some ambassadors for organization called backstoppers and it's we didn't he didn't pick two of the the doers as far as the you know pick two people who want to do who who want to get involved and so sometimes you have to just hey Give it a shot, you know, or ask the doers what can you what can you levy down to somebody else to help you get this done Sometimes you just don't ask them to do it. You just like, ah, I'll find someone else. And then they get offended. Hey, why didn't I get to do that?

Corley: Right, right. No, no, that's the problem with the doers that were that want more on their plate. No, yeah, absolutely. And their own competence can actually come to it. has anyone ever felt this comes from Valeria Valerie Tessier. Has anyone felt challenged by your form of dynamic leadership? And if so, have they come around since and how were you able to encourage them to do so? Chief Jason Hovelman: that's a good question. I'm not really sure. I I all I can say is that in any organization you've got people that like you and some that don't. And that's just that's just what it is. And some people will never come around. I can tell you that I think overall I have witnessed more positivity from that transformational type of leadership at all levels in our organization, not just mine. to where people have turned around the right direction as opposed to being so resistant that they never changed. That doesn't mean that let's just put it in this kind of perspective. Let's say I've got an officer who's at a six on a one to ten scale, right? Right. And we use this, we we we give them more authority and we give them the projects that they really like and we Let them do things they're interested in and we give them a lot of autonomy in the decision making. But they don't like me personally, or they don't like their battalion chief. That person may only ever get to an eight, but it's better than a six.

Corley: Right, right. Chief Jason Hovelman: Right. So so that's kind of how I look at it. I may have a someone who attitude-wise is a three but because we give them a pet project or we we we don't we don't we don't you know, micromanage or get real nitpicky with stuff. Maybe they get to a six. Right. Corley: Or go to war with them and try to crush them. Chief Jason Hovelman: Right. And and nobody wins there. Right. No nobody wins in that. And so I think that's kind of the the experiences I've had is that number one, when you talk about transformational leadership, it's got to be genuine. You can't be too over the top and you can't be changing all the time just to be changing. That's where that awareness, that's number one, self-awareness is critically important of what your capabilities are and what your what you're able to do and the influence you have. I'll be the first to tell you right now on the show as a fire chief, I'm not the most influential or respected person in my organization. I I would I would say that my fire marshal Cliff Robinson is. It's just the dynamic. It's just what it is. And so understanding that sometimes he goes to bat for what we need to get done with certain people To me, that's a that's a transformational leadership tactic is understanding who you have in in place is my shop, Stewart. takes in my in my in my my shift reps solve a whole lot of problems every single day that none of us ever hear about. So From my perspective, my bat my my shop steward knows what's Syrian is enough to have to come up the chain. So if I don't hear about it, I don't need to know about it. It just gets fixed. And and I trust our people to be able to do those things on a daily basis. And they do. They do. They do phenomenal work. And And so I think as far as experiencing transformation leadership in a negative way, generally not. not that it's not a challenge sometimes. Not everybody accepts it for what it is, but generally speaking I think our organization would say that it's been beneficial.

Corley: Awesome. I love it, man. I love it. Justin McWilliams coming at you. What percentage of negative versus positive chit chat do you get from your BCs and the line? Chief Jason Hovelman: Well, so unofficial communication, I hear what goes on and and and that's where as a as an officer you have to just let that stuff go off the bat. I tell people you're gonna take it personally, but you can't react to it personally. You just have to let it go. You have to and and and and a lot and sometimes you have to reflect on those things and go Am I doing that? Corley: Right, right. Chief Jason Hovelman: Am I acting that way? Is that a problem? cause sometimes there's some it's kinda like there's where there's smoke, there's fire. It might not be a complete, you know, fully involved structure fire, but it maybe a little fire needs to get put out or or something like that. But there there's a time and place for my officers to come down and be be able to complain or vent. It's not in front of their people. we've we've made that very clear, but they're They they can come down in in in in a private setting or in an officer's meeting, but the rule is it doesn't leave that way. Right. and so so that now everybody's human. And so people are going to complain off and on as long as it's not detrimental to the integrity of the crew and it doesn't establish disloyalty and disrespect for the organization and it doesn't hamper initiatives and implementation of of objectives

Corley: Dude, I love it, man. Great answers. Great questions. Josh Everett, he's currently enrolled in the BC class. He said he had seven people enrolled in the officer class. What drove you to develop those online classes? What is your vision for them and how is the group interaction during them? Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah, so I developed them because I when I was working to move up, I found a lack of the kind of training I wanted at that level. There's a lot more of it today than there was. That program has been around for quite a while. It's been I change it and I I add to it and stuff over you know, every year and stuff. But it there was just a lack of that. I took Fire Officer One, Fire Officer Two, and I've taken other certification classes that have a place. They serve a role and they're an important cog of a much larger wheel. But there were so many gray areas that were left out. There were so many omissions of what the day to day stuff really is like and and things to challenge you. And and he can tell you I use a lot of outside resources that aren't fire service. related. I use a lot of Harvard Harvard Business Review TED Talks, different articles and books that that relate to what we do, but it makes you take a different perspective and apply it to our field. And so I do that a lot. And so I started out with the development one, which is like the more administrative personnel side. And then I developed an ops one. and so that's that's how those were born. as far as the future of them are probably gonna stay pretty much the same, mostly because it's I've been told by hundreds of of people and officers that they're they're economic for their people to take and to to hang on to and use. So I won't I won't be upgrading like the the format or make it real complicated because it costs a lot of money. Sure. Excuse me. So That part will stay the same, but I'll always be interjecting new content as it relates to the job through other mediums and through our own mediums. As far as class interaction, that is complete. completely dependent upon the class. I've had classes that chat and and comment the whole class and I've had classes that have done none.

Chief Jason Hovelman: and and it's not a hard deadline type of class and it's not a you get a completion certificate. It's not pro pro border ifsac, nor was it ever meant to be, nor will it ever be. That's that's that's not what the intention of it was. so because I've had people tell me, well I my department won't let me take it because not accredited and that's fine. Right. I mean that's I'm that's cool. I mean I I get it, but that's not what it was designed for. Right. So that's that's I enjoy doing them. I mean, it's like going on the road. The the responses are very similar. but unique to their organization and it's very fulfilling for me to be able to read and and be trusted with their comments and and the things that they put forth word and it's a it's an honor for me to do them Corley: No, that's awesome. And and we had guys go from my department pretty early on in the officer one. I think it was about five years ago. I've I'm guesstimating. Yeah. Or it might have been another two, but yes, absolutely great feedback on them. Preston, what was I gonna say to you? Oh, Chief Unicorn over here. That's what Valerie said. Chief Unicorn over here. So very, very good compliments coming at you, man No, and absolutely, man, he is one of the absolute best fire chiefs in the country. And I don't say that lightly from the ones I have met. and The philosophy tonight is just phenomenal. Preston Lyons says, gee, I love this question. I want to see where you I yeah. How can you send a message in the right way? Because I really like that part of this in the right way to a fire chief that the department has a neglected culture. How can you send that from the command staff? Or has a neglected culture from the command staff

Chief Jason Hovelman: That's tough and tricky. there's not an easy path to that. But here here's what I'll offer is Sometimes when you can have a candid conversation about, you know, hey, where have we been as an organization? Where are we now? And where do we want to go? Can be a catalyst for a conversation of, okay, everybody in the room. what were three things or what were the things that you envisioned you would do when you got promoted to your current position? What were the dreams and aspirations that you had? when you got into this position, what was your mindset? What were you excited about? What did you why did you take that position, right? And I did this with my people. I made them write down three things. And then I asked them, I said, how how many how much of your time is being dedicated and fulfilled to accomplishing these three things? Because when you write those kinds of things down, it's kind of like, oh crap. And I've I've had those reflective moments. And so that might be an opportunity for him to say, hey, Chief, You've been around here a while, you know, or you know, here's you know what what you and it's gotta be a collective thing so it's not targeted at the chief. So everybody has to participate in that. But it might give him a l or her a little bit of an awareness that says, hey Yeah, man, I kind of forgot you know what what was so exciting. I kind of forgot why I really wanted that position. I forgot that you know, I I wanted to get this accomplished or I wanted to do that, or it was way harder than I anticipated. And then maybe you can offer some assistance or you can say, man, I've had the same thing happen to me. You've got to get on the same plane and you can't look down on those because everybody's got their own struggles. But as far as culture goes, The chief's job is to allow and to facilitate a good culture. A fire chief, in rare instances, I think, can fully create one, but the masses create the culture. They just need permission to do it.

Corley: So it really is just unleashing their potential? Chief Jason Hovelman: I think so. I think you gotta give expectations. You have to You know, I think that one thing for us that everybody's really good at is we take care of people. All right. So you get you you get What are you doing today? We're taking care of people. Well, that means I work out. Means I get good sleep. It means that the captains don't wake up the ambulance crew at eight o'clock in the morning just because the contract says they do, because they've been out for six hours a night You know, we they they have that latitude to take care of each other and to take care of the community and to put the community first. But like at our place th it there's they're gonna watch this, they're gonna cancel their PR. But i i i if if the ambulance The captain has the latitude to take him off a PR assignment the next day or to delay a train. They've we want everybody taken care of. Well that culture starts to but starts to grow that culture starts to embed everything that you do. Now our department's not perfect by far. There's people in my department listening us going ah he's full of shit. But Our people do these things every single day. And it's not because of me, it's because of who they are and and and the culture that was started long before. the traditions that that have stuck around over time in our organization and and the traditions that some of our new folks are creating. that moving forward are going to be incredibly important. yeah, does a chief play some I I would argue a chief plays more in tearing a culture apart than he does or her in building it. And so I I you know, our our folks painted stencils in the engine bay of the local Maltese and of the unit numbers and all this other stuff. they didn't get permission to do that. You know, they they hung flags down. Now, I've been presented with two drawings since I've been chief, which to ask permission. That's a red flag on the fire ground. Because they don't ask permission for hardly anything. So you knew it was kind of controversial, right? So they didn't get to do it.

Chief Jason Hovelman: So Because they don't have to. They've all got a they've got a each engine each engine house has a $2,500 pride and ownership budget. And they can pretty much spending on anything they want related to the engine house and and crew cohesiveness and culture and and and identification of who they are and different things like that every year. And the captains collectively decide that Right. Still has to go up the chain of command for PO approval. But those are the kinds of things that you have to allow happen for culture to be made better. And you know, the the culture's gotta be something that facilitates pride. It facilitates ownership, it facilitates our purpose, our mission, our identity, all of those things are important that have to be presented and identified in those cultures. Wow, wow. Corley: next question is are Have you ever thought about becoming chief anywhere else Chief Jason Hovelman: No. Corley: I know. I know the answer is it was somewhat of a joke. But I wanted to ask it because I think everybody in here might be thinking that on some level. Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah Maybe when I force and I love it a force and I really loved what you just said about everything you just said.

Corley: I especially as I travel and I hear so many stories of Chiefs the where where you can't even, you know, you can't hang a picture in the in the fire station without getting, you know, in trouble or why didn't you ask permission to do that? You know what I'm saying And it's just the the like you said, you can't have culture without pride. Loved it. man, as a firefighter, how do you work? let's see, Eddie J, our organization has had multiple big changes at the top the last five years. With conflicting messages each time. So the it keeps changing. How do we keep the forward momentum and keep building future leaders while dealing with the general frustrations that come with lots of change? Man, that's a That's a tough problem to have. Chief Jason Hovelman: You gotta do that below deck. Yeah. You do you just gotta keep trucking below deck. So you gotta you as long as they're not getting in the way, meaning executive staff, executive chiefs. You just got to keep plugging from as the the lowest level you can, right? So if it's BC's down, if it's captains down, you can you can build that cohesiveness in spite of all of that. Now sometimes they blow it up. But I think the thing is, is that really harping hard on mission and identity to your younger core and your members of what you're there for and let the officers run the interference going up. Right. Let the let the officers deal with all the fuzz, all the noise, all the BS going up, and then they also they play kind of an integral part both directions. They they they run that interference, but then they also are the calmers. and the ballast for the ship for going down to make sure that it stays afloat, that their their compass is true north and they're still going in the right direction. And they they've not lost that identity and what their purpose is. And I think over time those messages will become self-apparent and float to the top. Not always, but but some most of the time. Love it.

Corley: Chief, I wanted to find this one. It came earlier and it was it was a I missed the question. A firefighter's own worst enemy. It's from Jim Miller, and he's referencing something I think that comes from I obviously you know what he's talking about? Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah. Yeah. Corley: Okay. Yeah, I wanted to hear that because I didn't I didn't it didn't it didn't s go ahead. Chief Jason Hovelman: So that was something I created When I first got started into kind of teaching, what happened was I I I got in a funk in my department, I let my instructor too go. I was in a bad kind of a bad place. Our culture wasn't great. Our our department's not anywhere. It wasn't anywhere what it is now. And Then I got a boot in my ass and and had to redevelop my instructor too to get it again, and I built this class called a firefighter's own worst enemy. Based on a lot of observations and personal struggles and things I'd seen. Well, that was the first class I took to FDIC. That was the first time I taught at FDIC. Was that class? Okay. And then I made a blog post out of it. And I think it was, oh man, it was the net Fire Emiss Network.

Corley: Does that sound right? Yeah, sounds right. Chief Jason Hovelman: Probably oh eight. Yeah. Corley: Going what you're showing your age. Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah, and so that was my first dip in into that was firefighters on World Centre. And it was always about the things we do to kind of step on our own feet and cause her own problems. you know it's kinda it it it you know it's it was kind of a a build out of and a precursor to the new fire officer page, but it it was all about not just leadership but tactics stuff. I did a lot of I would do, you know, historic fire, you know, reminders. I would do, you know, preventative stuff. it was kind of a catch-all. Had a really good time with it. And then it just kind of phased out into the new fire officer as I as I refined a little bit of it. But yeah, Jim was one of the first people, God bless him, one of the first years I was at FDIC invited me to Brownsburg Indiana for dinner and never forget it. What a great guy and great friend. and always gonna be thankful for for that

Corley: Absolutely. I love it, man. I love it. And new fire officer, of course, is where I discovered you, and I'm sure a lot of others discovered you. So it's cool to hear the backstory behind it and stuff like that. love it. how Abd Abdullah says, how does a new firefighter prevent becoming part of the negative culture? Best way to do so. Chief Jason Hovelman: By choice. By choice. there's not a it's an endurance run. it's not a sprint. you're gonna have to be willing to put up with some pain and aggravation and frustration. But I I can tell you, and this isn't to toot my own horn, it's just cause I know my own experiences. I remember being in an engine house And telling guys, hey, I'm gonna pull the airbags off after lunch and being the only one on the engine bay floor. being told that being made fun of to take a vacation to go to FDIC because those who do do and those who can't teach, I was told. and and all of those things. I experienced all that. And you have a choice. It's just a choice and you can you you you can live past it and and work past it and do what you need to do and encourage and keep inviting people to join you in that in that journey. But it's an endurance run, man, over the hills and mountains and through the rivers and at night and when you're hungry and and tired and you just got to keep pushing.

Corley: Love it. And it is, man. The endurance. That's beautiful, beautiful analogy. The intersection of tactics and leadership. I love both. But tactics absolutely on the fire ground put out fires. But I want your thoughts on leadership at the firehouse and its impact on the fire ground. Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah, I think it's critical. for a long time I I was told that you you've all heard it. Well, he's good on the fire ground, but he's a pain in the ass in the engine house. Well, it does bleed over. Because what ends up happening is the preparation isn't there. That's the biggest problem when you're not when you're not filling that leadership void in the engine house the other ninety percent of the time is that the preparation doesn't get done the way it's supposed to get done. Simple things like this is that you you come in on shift, right? And you look at your cross lay and it looks jacked up. You have a choice. Okay, you you can pull it off and repack it and make some people mad, maybe, or you just let it go and you roll the dice and you don't have to deal with it. But I can tell you the times that I made our company pull those lines off to repack it the right way, it never came off right because it looked bad If it doesn't look right, it's not gonna come off right. Okay. And so it's those little things that when you don't, you know, inaction is the Is the seed for complacency. And then that seed turns into comfort and convenience. And comfort and convenience are the fuel behind complacency and apathy And so if you're not taking that active role inside the firehouse as a leader, your people aren't going to be prepared. They're not going to understand their responsibilities. You're not going to have the level of cohesive and team member trust Yeah, you may get things done on the fire ground, but when it comes down to some very critical moments, that trust can be fleeting and it can it can it can make people second guess things. And so I think that the those are the biggest keys, I think, where those have to align. And again, it's not about when you're on the fire ground, it becomes more autocratic. Definitely for sure.

Chief Jason Hovelman: It has to. But The people that you work for and that you're given orders to and put in harm's way have to be able to trust you because they respect what you do. They may not like you Right. But they trust that you're going to do it right and that you're dialed in, that you train, and that you make them do hard things when they don't want to do it. Corley: There you go, man. What a beautiful answer. Dude, I love it. I'm time stamping, timestamping over and over. John Mentz says, Chief, do you think micromanagement is ever a useful is ever useful as a short-term tool? And how do you prefer to manage firefighters that need more direction? You know, they need more direction, but how do you how do you keep from falling into micromanagement completely? Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah, I don't I think at that point it's called oversight and coaching. because it micromanaging typically is not temporary. It's usually a a disease people get systemic hard time getting rid of it. Okay, you know, so haven't found many drugs that allow people to to get rid of that is kind of a personality trait. But when you're talking about people that are struggling, and you're coaching and providing oversight, I go I go kind of go back to okay you might have to start over with some folks. Okay, what's the desired outcome? What's the intent? And how do we get them there without damage or or without, you know something catastrophic happening. So we do that in the preparation as a leader before an incident happens and we coach and and we say, okay You know, we take little chunks. You eat the elephant one bite at a time. You start addressing these foundational issues or their problems. The most important thing you can do is tell them, listen. You're not the only person that has struggled with this. You're we're gonna get you through it together. We're gonna make this a team effort, but you know, I want you to help solve this on. You've got to care about it as much or more than I do. and so in in those times, that's coaching and oversight. I don't think it's micromanaging.

Corley: Love it, man. And Ed Berg said it. He said this is a whole episode of clips, Corley. He's absolutely right. Of course I'm biased because I love leadership and culture talks, and I'll talk about it's my it's my favorite thing to discuss, psychology of human motivation and everything like that. So you're speaking my language, my love language, man, when you talk about these things. I absolutely love it. Brian Schuster wants to know Chief, can you explain how important it is to have a strong, transparent labor management relationship? Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah, Brian, Brian's a good friend too, and he he he knows how our department operates. So Just to give you some insight on to one of the first things I did when I got promoted to fire chief was and to be completely transparent, I spent Oh, six or seven years as a shift rep in our organization. Speaker 2: Okay. Chief Jason Hovelman: I'll be the first to tell you I don't agree with everything our union wants to do, but they don't agree with everything I want to do. Right. But I also don't think they're bad people because we disagree on certain things. But one of the first things I did as a fire chief was my shop steward is in every staff meeting or his representative. There's always a union rep in the staff meeting. And I got a little pushback on that because staff meetings were always just chiefs.

Corley: Right. Chief Jason Hovelman: And my my opinion I had a couple philosophies on this. One was there's no better way to break the rumor mill than to have the representative of the of the men and women in the same room at the same time. It's not coming out second or third hand. It's they were in the room. So that those people can can correct the record whenever it's necessary. And I've got stand-up people that do that The second thing is there's there's no secrets in our department that 99% of the things that happen in our department are open for just about everybody. And our shift our staff or our shop steward, who's like our union president for our department. just if the people aren't familiar with the term. he's gonna be involved anyway. Is it's not gonna matter. The the the the the third thing to this is that It allowed us to get a real-time perspective on decisions that are coming from chiefs who haven't been in positions that his men and women are in currently that we don't, we, we can't, we didn't think of. that we didn't we got a different perspective because he or she can go, hey, wait a minute. Here's what that's gonna do to the bottom half of our department, or hey, that's what's gonna do to our daily schedule. That, okay, well then we go back to, okay, how do we make this work? Right, and we're able to solve those things right there. I can tell you that there's a lot of times that some of the first calls that get made during crisis situations, whether it's from especially personnel and administrative. There's always collaboration between labor and staff, whether it's battalion chief calling the shift rep, whether it's me calling the shop steward. It just it defuses. any idea that there's any kind of backdoor channel one way or the other. None of us are trying to get one over the other one. And I just again I go back to okay I trust you till you prove me otherwise. Right. And I've not had any reason to not I've had a few very individualistic things that I humans are humans after all, but that were that were very hard and counter to union positions because their job was this and my job was this. Not because they're bad, not because they had an agenda, not because of any of that.

Chief Jason Hovelman: And I think as a chief, you have to be able to set aside that number one, you're going to have disagreements, but number two, you have to have them on your team. You have to have them pulling in the same direction. as your organizational goals and they have to be included in creating them and because they're directly impacted every single day by the decisions that start at the top and come down. Corley: Boom, boom. That's all I can say to that is boom. I run out of room on my piece of paper to write down timestamps. organizationally, and I and I I don't know how long you've been in a position that you're in currently, but Building that trust has it has it always sort of been there? Was that something or is that something that took time to build? Chief Jason Hovelman: It took time to build. It it it was started No, it's not always been there. We were a completely different department about 12 years ago in a in a really bad way. the the ch fire chief Bob Corey that who who moved up during that time did a great job in in navigating us through that. After that, Scott Supple was the chief before me who really put his foot on the gas with a lot of these things that we're doing now. A lot of the stuff I'm doing was already kind of put in place and I'm just kind of facilitating it and adding to adding to the stew a few more. ingredients, right? And so those two chiefs really started to set the bar for creating the environment we have today, along with some prior deputy battalion chiefs who were forward thinking right that that didn't maybe get to see the fruits of their labor while they were there but were realizing them now and so it's it's I I'm excited for when I retire the people they're going to slide in the positions that some of our senior level people are in. Nice.

Corley: I love the fact that you say that too. Daniel Flathers wants to know what's your thought on the when the culture? What do you do when the culture promotes accreditation or certification? rather than education experience. Where do you fall on certification versus versus experience basically? Chief Jason Hovelman: I think So a couple things about accreditation. I'll start there. Accreditation, you have to know where you live to some cities and some communities. That is a really big deal politically that is really important to to to those those areas. My department, I've been asked about doing accreditation. There's a time and place for it. I don't think our department right now has the to to yeah it would take too much away from our core mission, I think. not that it wouldn't be a nice feather, but I just don't think it's worth what it would do to us operationally and and training and and all of those things, I don't think the payoff is is worth it for us. Right. Certifications have a place I don't think any of this is the end all be all, including experience. I think it it's a mix and it's what you do with all of it, right? You know, I Kind of one of my soapboxes I get on with this particular topic. And I don't think a culture in a department should push. one over the other. I don't think that doing just stuff by experience is good. I don't think doing stuff just by paper is good. and so I think there's gotta be a a productive mix that takes into account and and i i i've been called on the carpet before on this before though is that i still believe in some subjectivity as it relates to advancement and different things. Our department doesn't do a lot of it, but they don't do really During the development part, but but I think here here's the thing I'll say about like degrees and and certifications and accreditation. If you look back at the last 20 years and you look at the the complaint of the line firefighters and officers is we need less paper chiefs, right? Right, leave less paper cheese. Whatever that whatever that means. I know what that in my mind what that means is people with a lot of paper, not a lot of experience on the on the foot on the floor.

Chief Jason Hovelman: Right. And I I would I wouldn't argue against that idea. Okay. What we what we need, what we're what we're gonna have to have, talked about dynamic leadership and different things. But what we're gonna have to have in the fire service in America is we're gonna have to have these salty, experienced, lying firefighters and officers willing to get advanced degrees to be the right kind of fire chief. Because here's what's not happening. County commissions, county boards, city managers, hiring people, they're not changing qualifications for fire chiefs. And what w unless we find a way to infiltrate all of those requirements, we have to have people who are hard charged and firefighters. who get the job, who have experience, that are willing. We need Frank Leaves. We need Sean Gray's. We need we need these these men and women who get both sides of the job. If we think that we're going to stomp our feet and complain and say we need less fire, we need least less paper chiefs, the people that make the decisions aren't listening. The second part of that is It also gets you a seat at the table to use your formal authority to be the right kind of influence for your organization and your members and get them what they need. And you can't put a price on that

Corley: No. Again, I'll just soundbite it and ship it. Man, just this whole thing, there's no reason to even clip it up. brother, I I've loved, loved, loved the conversation so far. And I look forward to this next one, which is my favorite question I ask on the scrap, and it's book or books? that you think firefighters should be reading. It doesn't have to be a firefighter book. It can be anything, but I I love I love books, first of all, and I love reading. So Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah, so one of my favorite books there's two books that actually three books that I read or listen to almost annually. Okay. Accomplish a couple different things for me. Then there's a couple I'll pick up every few years. One is the culture code. Scoil. One of my favorite books. Absolutely. Love the culture code. Another one is called Multipliers. And it's by Liz Weisman. And what it talks about is kind of goes along with a question that was brought up earlier about How do you make people more than what they are today? How do you find people that are multipliers? They make people around them better and they create more leaders. and they treat more engaged people and they treat people that are empowered. How do you do those things? And that's a really good book.

Corley: Who is the author on multiple? Chief Jason Hovelman: I think is her name. And then another one that I really like, and it's not, it's it's almost finance CEO related, but it's a really good listen. about a guy named Bill Campbell. And it's called the Billionaire, the Billionaire Coach, I think is what it's called. And it's written by Eric Schmidt, who was of Google, but Bill Campbell started out as a college football coach. small college out on the east coast somehow worked his way into the executive world and he coached all of the the big executives Steve Jobs Eric Schmidt all these people and helped run Intel and all and It's just interesting to hear his how he handled and talked to people a as a coach of the of the biggest corporations and the wealthiest people in the world. And and then when he was doing that, he was still coaching the CYC football team in Palo Alto. Corley: Oh wow. Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah. I I'll bet you Mark Von Oppen's heard of this guy. I'm sure, yeah. But Bill Campbell, that that that's a book that I like to listen to. on a at least once a year and it's it's about coaching. It's about the impact and influence he had on other people. And then I'll I'll I'll share one more with you and people look at me kind of cross eyed when I say that, but it's called When Breath Becomes Air. And I can't remember the name of the author. but it's basically about a neurosurgeon who ends up with brain cancer. he actually dies before he finished the book, so his wife had to finish the book. But it's about compassion and empathy.

Corley: Okay. Chief Jason Hovelman: And and as officers In order, I think, to really build some of that trust and relationships, one of those components has got to be some empathy and compassion with what people are going through, not only in your community, but the people Our lives are all screwed up. All of us have got things going on. And and as an officer, I I feel like one of your responsibilities is you don't have to dig deep into people's lives, but you have to have an awareness that people might be needing a little help, that they might need a little downtime. They might need a response that isn't so firm today. as opposed to other days. And so that book to me was kind of an away not an awakening, but oh yeah, a good reminder that hey just a nice perspective. People are people Right. They got a lot of things going on. Corley: What was the name of it? Sorry, one more time. Chief Jason Hovelman: When Breath Becomes Air. When Breath Becomes Air. All right. Corley: Dude, I love it, man. Chief Jason Hovelman: And I've got a ton more, but I don't I Corley: Josh, did you get that when Breath becomes air? I I asked him again, yeah. his comment. No, I love like when you lead off with day Daniel Coyle and the culture coat, which is like I said, one of my all time favorites. So now I'm instantly piqued on the rest, of course. Some of which I have not heard of. Some I've heard of multipliers. I think it's on my list.

Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah. Corley: Love it. All right. So that brings us to one of my favorite parts of the evening. And that is What is now called the Five Questions for Firefighters 3. 0, the 5Q3, it's the third iteration of the Five Questions for Firefighters. And for the first time, you're actually getting it's kind of a Technically it's like the 5Q3. 5 because I'm changing one of the questions tonight. Never been asked before. We actually had a vigilante meetup in Florida and we had a really cool discussion. And I actually liked the discussion that was sparked from it so much. I really wasn't happy with the old question number two because it was just get the same answer over and over. So like almost too easy to answer. Yeah. So so long story short, you get a brand new question number two tonight. No one's ever heard it before, so you're gonna be the first one to ever answer it. All right. that being said, are you ready for the five questions for firefighters version 3. 0? Chief Jason Hovelman: Let's do it. Corley: The questions, of course, have no correct answer. It's completely your opinion. The points are arbitrary. They're passed out by me with the help of the studio audience. So with all that being said, here we go. Question one. What is the skill that has carried you through your fire service career?

Chief Jason Hovelman: I think it's two things. It's I want persistency and consistency. Yeah, not just just keep pushing. I I was told by a board of director one time that as long as that person was there, I'd never get promoted in an interview. Corley: Nice. And you said yeah, I was pissed. Chief Jason Hovelman: And But I I go back to I like, you know, I'm I like to run. I I like doing trail runs and stuff. But persistency and consistency, if you can do those two things With intent, with with purpose and understanding the mission, I think you're gonna be good. I think those things have served me well Corley: Love it, man. I love basically grit, man. Just stick to it, persistency, consistency, all one. I absolutely love it. And I think that with that, I don't think there's many challenges you can't overcome or haven't used to overcome. So not only do you say it, but I believe that you've lived it. And so max points coming out the gate on number one. Number two, the brand new question I've never asked this question before, so give me a minute to frame it correctly. It's Job Town, plain and simple. It's Job Town. It's time. You're in route and responding Think of the scene from backdraft when the driver slams the cassette if you know cassettes. Some of the people may not, but I know me and Jason do. He slams that cassette into that tape deck and it starts playing a song. What song are you playing in route

Chief Jason Hovelman: So the song and backtrack, that's Heat Wave, I think. Corley: I believe you're right. Chief Jason Hovelman: Heat Wave. Yeah. I like a lot of the old music. Okay. And I'm a big Elvis fan. oh always been a big Elvis fan since I was a little kid. And my mom and dad had a big console record player, you know They had a low live in Hawaii, Aloha from Hawaii. They did the satellite TV special. Burning Love, baby, from a live from Hawaii. Burning Love. Corley: I love it. I absolutely love it. going with Elvis for the first time ever asked. Responding to Jobtown. He's playing Burning Love. Max points for number carpetfuego said Elvis. Yes, thumbs up. There you go. And that version. Chief Jason Hovelman: It's the live version. Corley: It's oh okay. Even better. I have to go look it up. Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah. Corley: Max points. Max points. In fact, that may be something we have to do in the future is you have to perform a rendition of it. I won't I won't throw that at you right now. Yeah. What is number three max points max points, but number three, what is your favorite fire service tradition? Chief Jason Hovelman: The dinner. It's dinner. Oh, it's it's dinner and then followed by a cup of coffee on the front bumper or and on the on the tarmac. That's easy.

Corley: Yeah. Easy, fast answer. And I love it because it ties into everything you said tonight, which is investing in the people. so you don't have to explain that when you say dinner and front bumper because that really is all about the relationships. Chief Jason Hovelman: Oh, it's the best. Yeah. Corley: No, without a doubt, man. You can solve all the problems in the world at those two places. Chief Jason Hovelman: They do every evening. Corley: I love it. Yeah, and Kyle Romager said, and allowed hunkah hunker after the door is forced. Chief Jason Hovelman: That's right. Corley: Deer Slayer 1220 said max points so far. I don't know why. I'm only seeing YouTube comments, so that's on me. I can't see Facebook. So just letting you know, I cannot see Facebook comments right now. I don't know why it disconnected that part of it. But it's not a big deal. We're getting plenty of of of scoring coming Yeah, Carpe Fuegas said, vigilante's karaoke karaoke is in our future. Ed Berg said 10, I don't know how many zeros that is, but a lot of freaking points. Okay, max points, max points, max points. Number four, who are the four people you would put on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service? Four.

Chief Jason Hovelman: All right, so I'm gonna start with some people you've never heard of before. Well, you did because I mentioned them tonight. One's Bill Hommock. retired volunteer chief at at Washington because this is you know real personal for me and the the personal impact he had. The second guy is one of the second guys is gonna be Scott Seppel. He's the chief that I replaced and I I would have been content working for that guy my entire career as a battalion chief. was sad to see him go. I still talk to him a lot. But what what his influence did for me was really demonstrated Right and wrong, integrity, character, morality. didn't just talk about it, demonstrated it all the time. And just was so genuine and cared about people. I mean, literally I remember Mo get having decisions, not not operational decisions, but some administrative and kind of weird decisions that I would go, what would Chief Supple do? And that's what I would do. Right. Because I respected the guy so much. Love it. Third guy is Bill Gustin. and not not because I know him from afar. I've gotten to know him personally. over the years and he's been an incredibly gracious and kind guy to me, but more importantly, he has been a personal confidant. Checking in on me, checking in on my family, talk to them on a on a fairly regular basis. And the second part of Bill is I'm hard pressed to talk about a guy that has as much in-depth knowledge on a broad scale of the fire service as Bill does. And his passions just unmatched. And I I almost did not promote the battalion chief because I wanted to be Bill Guston. Oh wow. Oh wow. It was I was that close to to wanting to just ride it all out as a captain. And Bill's the one that kind of talked me out of it. So and then the the final guy, I think, is my my cousin Tom Henson He he got me started, he was eight years older than me, and he got me started in the fire service as a junior back in the mid eighties. but he unfortunately was killed in an accident in 1991. And but without his example and without him kind of pushing me, not pushing me, but allowing me to be a part of his life at a really early age and taking me to the firehouse introducing me to the people, getting me indoctrinated with that smell of that old musty firehouse and the noises and the smell of gas and all that stuff and rolling hose.

Chief Jason Hovelman: I wouldn't be here today and I just, God bless you, Tom, where you're wherever you're at. Corley: Love the I love the four I love the four. Like you said, you mentioned all the names and then closing it out. So max points on Mount Rushmore. absolutely beautiful. Final question. It's the question that's never changed, never will change, is my plan. Heavy fire and searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES? Chief Jason Hovelman: I gotta tell you that that decision that that answer's kind of changed over the years a little bit. Okay. Okay. And here's what I'll say is. That we operate a truck in a truckless world in my universe. Corley: Okay. Chief Jason Hovelman: So I could still be first on the engine and do the VES. So I'm gonna go that direction. Corley: First on the engine and do the VES? Chief Jason Hovelman: Yeah. Corley: Okay. And there you have it. Truck ends hitting the line. One through the you're gonna make the truckies drag the line No, I love it. there you go. max points throughout throughout the night. Throughout the night, brother. I think you had max points before you answered any of the questions. But absolutely earned them on the five questions version 3. 1. Absolutely crushed it. And that officially makes it 208 scraps in the book. Jason Caraview said nice job on the second question changeup. It would be cool to see the guest town song incorporated on the highlight recap reel that plays next week. So I don't know about the the the copyright claims that they'll slap on the video, but I may see about doing it and making it worth it anyway. We may do that. Unbelievably. Chief Jason Haldman, what an amazing evening you shared with us. If someone wants to get a hold of you for more info, how can they go about doing that

Chief Jason Hovelman: So the new fire officer on Facebook or emails easy too. It's J Hovelman, H O E V E L M A N N at Gmail. com. Real simple and happy to to help anybody with anything I can. Corley: Beautiful. vigilantes we'll be meeting after this so we can tell Jason how crappy he did on the scrap and how how yeah we can critique his his performance a hundred percent. They always claim they're gonna roast the guest and they never do. Chief Jason Hovelman: that's okay. I'm a chief, I'm used to it Corley: The V90 challenge continues, so if you want to be a part of the next round of we have 35 days left when we start in the next one here in a probably about Little over a month. go be a part of the vigilantes. Go there. Let me pull up real quick. Let me get to my drive if I'm not too slow. I want to pull up the upcoming guests on the scrap here. Firehouse Vigilance, Weekly Scrap. Make it bigger. And hold on one second. Episode. There we go. Coming up next week, Clay McGee, then Jonas Smith, followed by Jeff Rothmeyer, Brian Richards, Frank Lieb coming back, talking about his new book, Mark Alone, Paul Shoemaker, Reggie McKnight, Brian Crush, Ben Schultz, Ron Smith. Man, it just goes on and on. That's that's the next 10 or so, just just rattling them off. 2023 has been killer and it continues. so back to my notes, maybe Close that. Alright, here we go. Finishing up. So that's who's coming up. So exciting moving forward. Vigilanes. Yeah, I will post a link in the vigilantes private group to come to the vigilante after party. As soon as the scrap ends, go click the link, come join. Other than that, man, that's it. It's been an amazing. I'm back from off the road. I'm back in town for a while. I'm ready to relax My brother, Chief Jason Hovelman, thank you for being such a phenomenal guest once again.

Chief Jason Hovelman: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. It's been a real honor being here. Corley: Audience, you of course make the scrap magical without you. again, such beautiful questions, man, all night long. Thank you. And thank you for helping me score the it was easy scoring tonight. I will be the first to say it. But thank you for helping me. Thank you for tuning in live. I love you all. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning. Everybody, stay safe out there.