Weekly Scrap #218 - Ray McCormack, talking nozzles

Corley: Firehouse Vigilance. If you are into the job at all, then Ray needs no introduction. He is retired after 38-year career with the FDNY. I could try to list everything this man has done, has put his fingers on, has touched. It would take too long. It would take most of the show. I'm just going to hit some highlights. He is the chair and lead author for the FDNY Engine Company Operations Manual. He developed and taught basics to standpipes for all FDNY firefighters, founded Urban Firefighter Magazine sits on the FDIC advisory board. He's a member of multiple UL and NIST studies. This man teaches, speaks, keynotes across the country He is passionate about improving the culture of extinguishment. And we are going to be talking about nozzles this evening. I'm a little excited for this conversation. I'm not going to lie. My brother, Ray McCormick, welcome to Scrap, episode number 218. Ray McCormick: Well, thank you very much. It's my pleasure to be here and be invited back for a third time. It's great. Wonderful. I love it. I love it. I absolutely love it. Is there anything I missed in the intro? Anything you would like to add? No, I I think we're pretty good there. I was lieutenant for about 26 years, so I kind of like that rank. Love it.

Corley: Lieutenant Ray Mack, that's how I actually first met you was on Twitter. Like first became aware of you LT Ray Mac. That's right. Audience, get your questions primed and ready for Ray and myself. This is going to be plenty to discuss. Quick announcements. If you're not a member of the Vigilantes, I would like to know why not. You need to go and join. The swag shop is going live tomorrow. The shirts are in. Well, the shirts are ready. We gotta go pick them up tomorrow And then the shop will be live tomorrow, hopefully, if everything goes good. So if you're waiting for that, they're going to be live tomorrow. Amanda, and we'll try to get everything shipped if you order it tomorrow before we fly out to Carolina. So the V50 starts this Friday. So if you haven't got your V50 journal, you want to be a part, go get it. FirehouseVigilance. com. And of course, the Vigilantes and the Scrap After Party, which Ray says he will come because he's excited about getting roasted by the vigilantes. So now on to the sponsors so we can get to the show. So there we go. Sponsors are done. People are logging in, Ray. Kyle is in the chat. He is grabbing chat from YouTube. He is grabbing chat from Facebook. He is grabbing chat from across the interwebs. So throw your questions at him. Man, there's a lot of people already logging in to hear what we're going to talk about. Matt Sleet said engine weasels unite. Alan Glogovsky said, good evening from Georgia. Jason Haynes said the man, the myth, the legend. David Pruitt said totally awesome. Third time I've seen him in two weeks. Can't wait to hear the truth bombs and pick up some golden nuggets. So there you go. So there's a lot. You have to come back and see there's like 30 people just already typed yeah. So here we go There's always new things coming out in the fire service, new technology, new new new tools. And it's it's but it's not often there's been something that's come out that's that's created as much buzz as the new hen nozzle. And so with all the questions coming in about it It was, man, let's just, I'll call Ray and see if he'll come on and just kind of field questions about it, talk about it, explain where it came from.

Corley: And then of course. Everything the audience asks and things like that. So with all that being said, it's not a commercial for head nozzle. They're not sponsoring. This is strictly informational for the fire service. So a lot of questions. Talk to me about how you became involved with it and and and just the origin kind of sorta. Ray McCormick: Yeah, well, I I came at it over I believe it was September of 22 I met the owner and got my initial introduction into a product they were going to make and for the fire service. And it was there was no nozzle at that point. It was just a 3D prototype. And One of the principals in the company was Eric Gita, who I had taught with years ago and had known for a long time. we didn't We didn't quite recognize each other. I had the beard and I hadn't seen Eric in a bit and so we realized who we both were. And then, but one of the things that fascinated me was that and it was in 2008 I had taken a 1516 tip, which was the size FDNY used, right, and crushed it into an oval And what that did was it created a linear flat stream. And the inspiration for that, unfortunately, was a sad incident. In 2008, we lost Lieutenant John Martinson. John had been a fireman in the 16th Battalion where I worked. He was in 80 engine, got promoted. And he was at a wind-driven fire, a wind-impacted fire, and he succumbed to his injuries. And after that happened, I I was calling some people. I was calling Chief Jerry Tracy for a little guidance. I wanted to know if there was any way that an engine company we didn't have the floor below nozzle in in any kind of large quantity. I'm not even I think we had it, but I'm not sure. but it certainly wasn't in every apparatus. But so I was wondering, is there a way for the engine, let's say on a stamp pipe call, 'cause he he was killed in a in a project, a high-rise apartment house Is there any way I could put something in the kit that could give me a stream that would go up the face of the building and get pushed in by the wind? I developed the stream and it rode up the face of the building beautifully.

Ray McCormick: I used two elbows and attached the nozzle to that and put it right in the corner of the window. Ran it up the face of the building, it performed great, but that's not how the wind-driven fire works. That's not how the extinguishment works the water would barely go in. So you know I tried it as best I could it didn't work. but That stream pattern stayed with me for a bit. I had taken one of our half-inch tips and crushed that into an oval. And the fan spray or the blade, whatever you want to call it, the linear stream that it creates. was able to wash down quite a bit of surface area for me and it was very efficient. So I run into this new company that's basically took an idea that I had 14, you know maybe 13 years ago when I first met them, unbeknownst to me, unbeknownst that I had anything, and into an actual nozzle. And a stream pattern. And not only that, they were making it adjustable. In other words, the width would vary on the stream. And if you didn't want it wide, it was still a smooth bore. So you were getting the best of both worlds. And so the it fascinated me. And we kept in touch and then later in 2023 I I came on as an advisor to the company and it's been very fascinating and the interest that it gone is is is impressive as well. you know, today's modern fire is almost like buckets of gasoline burning in the houses. I mean, it's really bad. And I was just talking to someone about all the e-bikes and all the elect, you know, the battery. and UL has just done a video on how fast that just spreads. And Firefighters, this is probably only gonna get worse. Firefighters need a nozzle pattern. Well, they need choice, that's number one, and they need a nozzle pattern that works for them What I mean by that is when you have a flat spray, the coverage that you get is impressive. Not only is it impressive, it's measurable. So if we have a stream that's two or three feet wide, let's just say That's something I can measure. I can apply it and coat with it. And if that isn't what you want, you have a smooth ball stream, which is I always felt was superior to a solid to a straight stream anyway.

Ray McCormick: So but one of the things that happens with solid or straight straight streams is that The application is applied to one specific spot, and that's a very narrow, obviously a narrow spot. Right. And then it's quickly moved somewhere else. So what we have is sort of, if we're doing circles, we have like an arc in the spray. So the the hit of that circular pattern is not even. It branches out. And then if we do a continuous circle, and I always put this in my classes, If we do a continuous circle in a wide space, what we end up with is a very hollow center. There's hardly any water in the middle of the room. But when you use a defined pattern, this linear pattern, you can do a simple up and down and move it around And the coverage, we're getting all the hit spots. And the effort is is different. It's it's intuitive. It's really intuitive. It's amazing. You know, I don't want I don't want to break different styles. You know, it's okay Corley: I don't want I don't want to break your flow, but for those who have no idea what we're talking about, explain the pattern versus like because they may think you're talking about a smooth board or a fog knot or a combination or something here. Oh no, no, no, no

Ray McCormick: No, yeah, no. Fog nozzles, they deliver a conical spray. So that's you know, it's a cone and like any ice cream cone, it's hollow in the middle. And so Fog sprays, you know it's funny you mentioned that. fog sprays have basically I caught Keith Stake's latest lecture and basically He affirms that fog has no place inside structural fire attack, Fogspury. So, you know, a 30-degree fog, I was surprised how wide it is. It's very widespread. And so there's problems with fog sprays, obviously. The the droplets are small. We're not getting good gas contraction. The the entrainment is high. So there are some serious negatives with fog for any kind of interior fire attack and and exterior application like a transitional. They don't do that either. Too much air being in entrained into the building. So I'm not even gonna talk about Fogg. Okay, no. I'm not a big fan of s straight streams. They're okay, but you know, they're weird Corley: two they go out they come in they go back out i just wanted to make clear to everybody listening that when you're talking about that pattern you're talking about something completely new not not some Fog pattern on 30 degree. Not a power cone or anything. Correct, correct.

Ray McCormick: None of that. None of that. And the beauty of it is that The nozzle firefighter can pick what they want. And they don't have to stick their finger in the barrel and you know to check what spray they're on because Any spray out of this thing is good. It's all good, as they say. But, you know, with today's heat release rates and we need something that guarantees coverage and coverage really is king when you think about it. If the water is not placed in the right location, then we're not getting much return on our investment. What what the wider spray allows for, well, there's a lot of things it allows for, but let me just start with the first thing it allows for. When it exits the nozzle and it and it goes into its pizza slice, right? It automatically goes into a pizza slice. Regular, not Sicilian, all right? So let's get that straight. So it goes into a V pattern and it projects upward. And I I am telling you what's happening is we're getting a contraction on the way to the ceiling. And we're getting it in a wide band. Instead of a simple Stream going up there, we have this wide band. So we have a multiple. We have a you know force multiplier here with the fact that the stream Alright, I'll use an analogy like a broom, a push broom. So you have the handle of the push broom, which is narrow. That's your solid stream going up. Fine. If that's what you're going to use, that's fine too. But when you use the blade stream, that that's what we call it, the blade stream, you have this accountable. strip of water that is going through the gas layer and cooling because the droplets are large. They are large. They are not to the point that they are small like a fog stream. So this chunky water, if you will, is traveling through and it's doing its job. It's cooling as it goes up. And then once it hits the ceiling, or a hard surface like a ceiling, It will expand even further. It will V out even more. But when you have a solid stream doing that, the only place it expands is when it makes contact with the surface. So this stream is already doing that for you as it projects forward.

Ray McCormick: It's already giving you, it's already elongating. And then it hits and it does it even more. Corley: Without sacrificing the droplet size. Ray McCormick: No, and the stream is doing the work. The stream is doing the work that you would have to do with the vigorous moving back and forth. The stream is already providing that breakup For you. Corley: Real quick. Hey, everybody, keep your questions coming. Kyle is slamming all your questions into the document, so they're stacking up. I promise you, I'll throw them all at Ray, but I'm going to let him keep doing the making the points about the beginning, and then we'll get to the specific questions you have. Fair? All right. Ray McCormick: Yeah, so I've been looking at this for a while. You know, the hit spot I'll call it where the where the stream strikes the surface is its initial surface cooling We we do service cooling here in the United States. That's what we rely on. Help us to put out fires and to get us to fires. We use that. And water is our friend. We want water on the ground. UL was unable to flash over a room because the floor was wet. Right on. That's one aspect. But the other aspect is that When you're sp when you're in the fire room or you put out some fire somewhere and you see water on the ground, that means it survived. It did its job. It went up Hopefully it gas contracted, it hit the surface and expanded. Now imagine if just your solid stream hits, then it starts its triangle. We're with the blade pattern, you already have the triangle suspended in the air, traveling towards the ceiling, and its hit spot is a multiple of what the other was. So already Not only are we getting enhanced gas contraction, we're getting enhanced cooling space on the ceiling. We're hitting more of the surface. And then it's spreading out as well. All this stuff matters. It's all incremental. Gas cooling, surface cooling, drop size retention and cooling. And then when it drops on the burning materials A wide drop can absorb more heat. So, you know, again, this nozzle gives choice I love smooth board. That's all we ever used in the FDNY. We had you know, we had some fogs for when we needed them, but you know, it's kind of a rare thing these days to use one and if you need them you have one on the rig.

Ray McCormick: There's nothing wrong with that. But you know for interior fire attack Coverage. Think coverage because it allows you to give you More flexibility. In other words, if you move a stream that's you know two inches in diameter, an inch and a half in diameter, you basically have to put it exactly where you need it But with this linear blade stream, if I just move it one way or the other, I'm already getting where I need to get. And then some. You're getting a little extra So the movements don't have to necessarily be as frenetic as it would be if you use an ass straight stream not so much wall ceiling wall and exaggerated well wall ceiling wall i've always had an issue with one of the reasons is it works i'm not saying it doesn't work But there's no crossover at the bottom. And I want water on that floor. I want to sweep that floor. That's for us. circles, of course, can do that. A circular motion, of course, picks up the floor as well. But so does the linear blade stream. This simple up and down. You're getting the ceiling And then you come down and you're getting the four. You know you're getting good coverage. And the other thing is, of course, the the width that it can go. The width can cover a good majority of the width of a residential hallway inside a house or an apartment. The stream covers the whole width, pretty much. I mean, so it and it's very like I said, it's very intuitive how the firefighters use it. you'll see the firefighters as they advance forward, they'll dip it down and as they come up as part of their kneeling and crawling. it kind of goes right up again.

Corley: It's kind of kind of works in with the body mechanics. Ray McCormick: Yeah. Oh, it's it's better for body mechanic, I think, because You know, a lot of it is central. Number one, the movement is central because you're getting a width in the hallway already. So there isn't much movement you need to do there. And then if you get into a room I believe that there is some additional easing up. I don't think necessarily I don't know if it's numerical, in other words, nozzle reaction. It may not go down because of the width of the stream, but I've had many firefighters say to me, wow, this feels easier. And and You know, that's another thing. Firefighters is telling me things. I'm not telling them. They're telling me. Right. And and that's that's part of it, which is great. You know, so we have the we have the gas contraction, we have the cooling of the surfaces, which is wonderful. And then again, like I said, coverage is great. Not only that, we, and you we're going to show a video out of a burn we did in Texas with real furniture. and some extinguishment there that we did. I'm telling you, the stream survival of this nozzle in a superheated environment was outstanding. Outstanding. We basically covered Well, it was about 36 feet deep and it might have been even closer to 40. we were hitting the back wall with the with the blade stream, full blade, full wide blade on a 160 GPM nozzle and it it went out pretty darn fast. You know, we there's a thing in the fire service where the fire service is trying to encourage people to use a booster tank, use the water you brought with you. And you know, studied a lot of these things, how much water we use. I'm telling you that this nozzle is highly efficient. We captured many fires, good-sized fires, probably under 100 gallons, two rooms. two two big rooms connected together flowing for maybe 40 seconds total. Wow. I mean and and Easier. Easier. So there's nothing wrong with making something a little easier. No, absolutely. You know, The nozzle technique, like I said, I believe it's very intuitive, but even if it isn't, to just tell somebody, hey, you might want to think of just going up and down. Okay.

Corley: Lesson over. Ray McCormick: They get it. Corley: You know, they're Are you ready for questions coming at you from the audience? They got a ton of them. Ray McCormick: All right. Well, hang on one second. Okay, okay, okay, okay. You know, you know, I love smooth board streams, and that's the other thing. You turn this nozzle to the right, you get a smooth board tight. Turn it to the left, you get the blade stream. I mean, you can't lose. And the other thing that's nice is that it gives firefighters an operation. choice. They don't have to worry about which way they turn this dial. It's going to be bad ass either way. And I'll tell you one thing. You said I was 38 years with the fire department, and that's true. And then and I'll tell you this, this is a product I'm behind. I think it's a great product and you know it it means a lot to me. Corley: And well I'll say this I'll say this Ray real quick is if it wasn't you and Dennis Backing it, I wouldn't be bringing people on here to talk about a new product. You know what I'm saying? So that that speaks that speaks volumes. Fair enough. I think that's why so many people are asking questions and and so interesting. But go ahead. Sorry.

Ray McCormick: Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, we we talk about this nozzle in flows in gallons per minute. You know, so if you want to know what the flow is, you know, forget the fractions. Fractions are out because the water comes out of a rectangular opening. So there's there's no fraction. involved. It's just flow. And I love that, you know, because you just say, hey, this is the 160 right here. And everybody gets it. Forget all those fractional numbers, those diameters. They're passe. Corley: Gotcha. All right. throwing it at you. A lot of people want to know like the 160, what's the nozzle reaction? Ray McCormick: A nozzle reaction is the is pretty much the same you would have in a circular tip. It's 59 pounds, I believe. 59 pounds. Corley: Rock on. okay, here we go. Josh Everett's wants to know and some of these questions, I'm just throwing them at you as they come. Are are you working on a 50 PSI hand nozzle or just a 75 PSI? I've only seen 75 PSI videos. Saw Uncle Kyle doing some work with y'all. So go ahead. Ray McCormick: No, most of the nozzles are 50 PSI low pressure nozzles. There is a 150 at 75 that we have in production as well. The higher ones, there's a 95 at 100, which is used for the WooEy Wildland Urban Interface. And there are some forestry nozzles 30 and 45 GPM That are at a hundred PSI.

Corley: So which I've heard amazing things about the the hen application in a wild on urban interface. You know what look like people say to me, yeah, the pattern, you know, that's kind of weird. Ray McCormick: I'm like, how is it weird Did you ever use a can, a fire extinguisher? We always put our thumb over the can when we needed a flat spray When you wanted something in your garden and you wanted a flat spray, you put your thumb over the opening. That's what we're doing here. We're putting our thumb over the opening and we're getting tremendous coverage. So, you know The the stream is something people can recognize instantly and the the fire attack mode is very very intuitive. Corley: Love it. Jason Haynes coming at you. Ray, what differences in air entrainment are you seeing with the hen versus a smooth bore? Ray McCormick: All right, so hen errand trayman. I know the numbers from the UL study. I don't have any numbers for hen, to be honest with you. I don't. We don't have that kind of lab. But I will say this, using the UL flag, which is you know, always used in the host stream prop. Right. I have posted some videos on that. You will see some air entrainment with the nozzle. But here's the thing. Air entrainment is good. Now for a firefighter to get a smooth bore up to the 5 to 6,000 CFM range, they have to be doing like a circular motion, like one rotation every second. Not impossible, but hard. It's hard to do. So their error entrainment level is probably less than ideal Remember, we want air and tremendous. We want a certain amount of air coming in behind this nozzle to go forward. And we also want to push those gases away from us and out the window. So having some additional air entrainment by using this nozzle is a good thing. It doesn't go to any level that that would be perceived as dangerous that we saw with the 30 degree fog. We've we've made pushes on unvented rooms here with this blade In fact, the video you're going to see tonight, one of the rooms is an unvented room. There was no negative consequences of making that fire attack.

Corley: Okay. Okay. No, that's awesome, man. Nat Black wants to know what is the difference in the effectiveness? well that that's traditional. Hold on, I'm gonna come I'll come back to you, Nat, I promise. Jared Mann says, are you seeing less water on the floor and more efficient use with the hen? Ray McCormick: Less water on the floor. No, I don't think so. No. Nope. But I will say this, we're not flowing excessively in the time range because we're getting a faster extinguishment. So if that makes sense to you, yes. There would there would be less water because we're not flowing as long as some other people might, because we're getting that coverage We're not trying to get it like hoping to get it. We're getting it. So in that sense, we're we're being very efficient. Corley: Wow, no, it's awesome. And Smoothboard Cartel said in the chat, the main concern with air entrainment for most folks is with a no-vent push. And he said, Kyle said, I had no negative effects from the blade in the two Novent pushes I made during the burns And so that's pretty impressive. Ray McCormick: Can you say testify? Corley: Yeah, the Kyle's testify. Jason Haynes says, Ray, will the linear stream have as much penetration as a solid tip?

Ray McCormick: as for punch, is that what he means by that probably? I'm I'm guessing yes. Yeah, there's a there's a slight loss in velocity, of course there is. because you're spreading that stream out over a a bigger area. But for what you're going to do in a residential setting, it's really nothing to really be concerned about. You're gonna, you're gonna, we were hitting a wall 36 feet away in 1,200 degree floor-to-ceiling temperature. temperatures. So I I think that speaks pretty well. Corley: That's a lot of punch, yeah. That is a lot of penetration. And the smooth bore setting Is is strictly a smooth board anyway, so you're gonna have the same right. Ray McCormick: 100%. Well whatever you've seen in a solid smooth board stream, you're gonna see to the right. Yep Corley: Ben Jones says, how does the nozzle man know the orientation of the blade pattern when he's in a zero viz environment? Good question. So Ray McCormick: The way the nozzle is set up, when it's when the dials are straight ahead of you on the nozzle. the blade is horizontal. We we believe that the blade should be horizontal for fire attack because of the the con the coverage that you get. You know you're hitting the ceiling over a certain area, you're getting the ceiling in the hallway wet, you're covering it. So we've set it up that way you can you can make it different you can orient it vertically you can most definitely so That's how you know when those pin rails, when those wings, if you want to call it, are lined up one behind each other, you're in the wide blade mode and you're horizontal. Okay. If you want to get it tight, you just go to the right. And it's not even a quarter turn. That's the other nice thing. You don't have to be like trying to overspin this thing. And and When you pull it out of tight to go wide, you can incrementally put it wherever you want.

Corley: Okay. So it will go in between. Ray McCormick: Yes. Oh yeah. Corley: All the way to the better. Yep. Yep. There's a range in between Have you been able to quant quantitate the CFMs? Oh, he know, no, sorry, John, I see this same question. No, they have not got the numbers on area entrainment yet Ray McCormick: No. But then even if even if we did, there'd be nothing to be concerned about. Corley: Nothing compared to a fog. No, no way. Right. Dan Bender wants to know, do you have to change pump discharge pressure when you change patterns? He goes, I'm having nights of the Saberjet. Ray McCormick: I can't speak for anybody else's products, but no. You won't have a problem. You just pump it and try and get that close to 50 psi at the nozzle if that's what if you're using the 160. We've flown it floated at 45 You know, but of course you're gonna get, you know, reduced gallonage then we wanna wanna stay above that 150 if we can. So have you have to get the tip as good. Corley: I mean besides the loss of gallonage underpumping and overpumping, is there any any concerns at all? Ray McCormick: No, because we know that people will not get it dialed in 100% correct. but they try they should try to do that, of course, for their drivers and engineers to to make a nice panel. But yeah, it it's 50 PSI. That's it. You don't have to really get crazy about it

Corley: Love it. can the hen nozzle Greg Van Ham wants to know, can the hen nozzle be pumped at a low PSI with the same gallonage as a smooth bore? And then he yeah he already talked about the the nozzle pressure is comparable. It's 59 PSI, he said on the 160. Ray McCormick: Yeah, it's the same. Yeah, look, it's a smoothborne nozzle. It's a s at its core, it's a smoothborn nozzle, but it's adjustable into the blade pattern. So, you know, questions of is it like a s it is a smooth boy. It is a smooth boy. Corley: Yeah, I think he touched on Von Brown, great question, but he touched on the air entrainment. And it it does not have the churning of the environment. And Bonifield and Ramagus both said during their pushing into a no-vent fire, they did not have trouble with the air entrainment. Tommy Rivers wants to know, I ordered a hen two weeks ago without the shutoff. I plan to put it on L cart. Should I anticipate any issues with this setup? Thanks, Ray, for the info. Ray McCormick: No. Shouldn't have any issue if it's a full ball shutoff. You should be just fine

Corley: Beautiful. Josh Everett, what is the best keyhose package for this nozzle? Ray McCormick: Usually the way nozzles work is you try and pair them up with an internal diameter of whatever hose you're looking for. Corley: Mark Alone says, can Ray explain how it's adjustable from the blade to a traditional smooth bore? Ray McCormick: Yeah, so the the smooth bore is on the right, so You turn it to the right, not even a quarter turn, and you're in tight mode, what we call tight mode. And that is your your solid typical smooth bore stream. Then as you adjust it to the left going back towards the center spot, you're going to get a widening of the stream until it's at its widest. So you can pick whatever you want. If you need to put it up between the rafters of a of a house and shoot the attic, you can fit a 24-inch stream in there and you're gonna get full coverage. Now one of the things with the attic fire that's in interesting is if you can get the plywood wet, you've gotten probably fifty percent of the wood in that place wet. So you know that technique with this nozzle is is awesome because then you can just run along the Eve line and and hit it and your your s your your nozzle is already set for that so it's really nice

Corley: is there any GPM loss going from the smooth board to the blade? Ray McCormick: That comes from Matt Hauser. No, but there is a slight increase when you go from smooth board to blade. Oh really? Increase, yes. Corley: Oh wow, okay, okay. has there been any Anthony Weiss wants to know has there been any water mapping studies done with this nozzle like FSRI did on the other nozzles? Ray McCormick: No, they have UL has not looked at this nozzle yet for that because well, that would sort of be like product testing, single product testing. So They're not going to get involved in that, I don't think. But I have used it at many locations and done water mapping classes with it. So you know, we we've done plenty of that with the Excuse me, the host stream prop works very well in there. And you're right, it creates a great visual, no doubt about it. But it'll work in you know, any type of prop. I just recently used it in a At a conference where they created a plywood hallway. Functions great in there. Corley: Nice. Mark, Michael Allen. I hope you like all these questions. There's tons of them, so I'm just trying to get through. Yeah, I'm all right. Rapid fire. Michael Allen wants to know what is the fan. Stream reach measurement before the pattern breaks down.

Ray McCormick: he's talking about breakover? I'm assuming probably the stream will go about 70 something feet, I believe. I tested it inside a big office building in Chicago and breakover is probably about 45 to 50 feet. Corley: that type of thing okay stephen negley is the hen going to be available for big water lines like the two and a half yes we have a 265 Ray McCormick: hen. It was just used at the Joey D conference this weekend actually and a lot of people enjoyed using that and there was some interest in it of course And the nice thing about it, it's of course, it's on a two and a half shutoff, but the nozzle itself is small. You know, these nozzles are not big, clunky, you know, nozzle. They are they are what they should be. Corley: They are highly functional, efficient, and small. Well, which leads right to this next question from Mark Alone. Great question. What kind of maintenance is required? I'm assuming it has moving parts to be adjustable. Ray McCormick: So is there a lot of maintenance or or there's very little there's no real routine maintenance except for cleaning the nozzle as you would any other thing that has some sort of moving parts to it But there's very little that moves on this. there are two outer edges that keep the stream bound when it's in tight mode. And this is basically all they do. They just go out of tad Very small. It's very hard to see actually.

Corley: And that creates the width on a screen. Okay. Ray McCormick: So that's it. So if you keep that clean You're you're good. And we've used the nozzles and just, you know, put them in, you know, stream of water. Just, you know, nothing crazy Corley: Paul Shoe, Paul Shoemaker says, what's the reach down a hallway if you're trying to push down a dirty hallway in an apartment-style structure? Ray McCormick: The reach? How long's the hallway? It'll reach. It'll reach pretty far and you'll you'll kill that hallway. You would kill it with a You would kill it with a solid stream too. Don't think that, you know, that's negated here. It's there. the only difference is you would have a different style, attack style for that whether you did wall ceiling wall or circular where more than likely you would just use the blade method up and down to get the coverage you needed. But no, it's you know look, hallways are made for streams because You know, they're long and narrow. Our streams are gonna kill anything in that hallway, in a typical residential hallway. So you don't have to be worried about it. But what you do need to do is put some water in that hallway Because even though you think you may not need it, there can be an area down near the fire that's extremely hot. You haven't gotten there yet. The other thing is when you apply this stream It it does surface cooling for you and it keeps the f the temperatures from rebounding. It also stops anything coming out. Into the hallway, it pushes it back a bit. And the other thing that it does is it it pulls heat out of other areas as well and it gives you air entrainment. Now I did a video a while back And where I and I had talked about this for a long time, where you shoot the stream down the hallway horizontally. You don't know really how deep the hallway is. And then slowly start to bring it back. And then when you start to feel those droplets hit your coat, your stream's about maybe four to five feet away from you on the ceiling. Right. Once that's done, that single hit along the ceiling will coat the walls and a good portion of the floor as well. Now start your movement and do your advance.

Ray McCormick: You pre Cooled the whole way. Yeah. Yeah. That's important. Especially if you can't tell how long it is. So that question there You don't know how long the hallway is? Shoot that stream straight down there till it you hear it hit the back wall. Bring it up slow, bring it back towards you, and you'll have cooled that whole ceiling once. Then start your rotation. Corley: Prep for your rotation and your push. Matt Sleet says, has hydraulic ventilation been attempted? If so, how is the results? Ray McCormick: Very good. Very good. We finally have a stream that fits a rectangular window. Remember, I told you the stream comes out of a rectangular space. Most windows are rectangular. We did a an experiment in the UL prop. We took a tip off a nozzle and we used a half bell on the shutoff. And we people have been using that forever. I know I used it forever. What happens is you have to be about three to four feet away from a we our window is three by three. We were three and a half to four feet away getting water out that window. Now the water has to go out the window, by the way. If it's hitting the sidewall, so is the smoke you're trying to get rid of. When we used the hen, we fashioned the stream. We chose what stream it needed to be to fit in that window pretty good We were 12 feet away. So air entrainment increases from distance.

Corley: Distance. Ray McCormick: The other thing we were able to do was we were able to agitate it a bit. That also increases entrainment. So it works very well for that. Corley: Love it. Yeah. Any research on stream conductivity? Hmm. Conductivity? Yeah, electricity and and I mean it's a smooth bore, just a different pattern. So I imagine it has this I would imagine it has the same conductivity probably as a smooth bore. I would think so too. I would I would think no no research been done on it, I'm assuming. Ray McCormick: No. Corley: Right. No, no, no. But me and Ray are both assuming. Like if you're telling me, should I shoot it at a live electrical thing? probably not. Avoid that John Velez Jr. said, you mentioned Keith Stakes. During his presentation at Mile High, he stated the more surfaces cool simultaneously, the more gas contraction you get. Do you think the blade pattern will perform better for those purposes than a typical smooth board? Yes. But go ahead, Ray. Sorry. Ray McCormick: Well, I I do because of the things that I mentioned that It still will do the spread out like any other nozzle and it starts sooner. In other words, if you had a let's say a 10-foot ceiling, the blade will ride and get wider as it goes towards that 10 foot mark, whereas the solid stream never gets any bigger until it hits something. So when when the wide blade hits the ceiling That's mapping over a bigger space to begin with. The other one's trying to catch up. It's like two trains leaving the station, you know. You know what I mean? One's way ahead of the other, basically. On the coverage. Yeah. So you don't you don't have there's I'll I'm gonna say I'll use the word superior. There's superior gas contraction. Because we're getting it in a phase that I don't think we ever got it before. And that's this phase of going up with this wide stream. Everything else, just think of it. I mean, it's very simple. If I have a stream that's only so wide, but I have a multitude of those stretching out over several feet, I'm going to get more gas contraction. It's just, it's just math.

Corley: Right. Mark Alone asked, does it still pass debris on the blade pattern? Ray McCormick: Yes. Yes. In fact it might even pass more because it's a little wider on the outer edges. You know, it's like anything else. It'll pass a reasonable amount of debris, certainly, sure. Corley: Mm-hmm. fine, we're getting down to it. We're catching everything. We're almost almost there. how do you get a demo nozzle? That comes from James Mitchelisco. Ray McCormick: I would suggest you buy one and try it for yourself and then you'll never return it. How's that sound? Corley: Jake Dill. Ray McCormick: We have some nozzles in use on the fire ground. So demo nozzles are You know, we want people to take a leap of faith here. You got a smooth ball on the right, and you got probably the best stream innovation, not probably, the most significant stream innovation in 70 years. you know, it it depends. If you're around and I'm around and I have it with me, you can you can get a demo. But I mean we're putting out tapes, we're we're shooting videos all the time and I'm not I I know you want to get your hands on but there is a liberal return policy. If somebody was to purchase it and they didn't want it, they could return it. But

Corley: Don't be shy, give it a try. Yeah, don't be shy, give it a try. That's Ray's new slogan that comes from Tony Nunes. Jason Caribou says, I do like this one. What is the cost of the nozzle? That's always the the down to the yeah. They lose you? Mic check. Ray's locked up. I'll talk to you for a bit, everybody. Bomb bomb. Good question from Von Brown. We'll wait and see if we get Ray back. Hopefully we do because he's way more entertaining. I'll interact with the the yeah he's frozen. Hey, let me know if you can hear me still prattling on and talking, everybody. Please let me know if okay. Okay, just checking. Just checking. At least he's smiling. Oh there we go. We lost him. Okay. No problem. Sam's messing with it. We'll get right back in here. Keep answering your questions. Keep throwing your questions in there. if Jay or Kyle have anything to add, please put it in here. I'll read it to everybody. Have Kyle speak a bit on his experiences and yes, I can hear you. Thank you, Dennis. Ray froze up on I know I asked him the cost question and just stopped. And I'm like, okay, maybe I shouldn't ask that one. David Mellon says, I can hear you, butt that face. Butterface. What? Jeff Clark says price is comparable to a combination nozzle. So there you go. Tommy Rivers says, go, Kyle. They're typing, I'm sure. I'm trying to think what else here. What else to talk about? I guess I can do some of the vigilantes. If you're not a vigilante, go be a vigilante. I can do all that speech again. The V50 starts this Friday. If you want to make a difference in your life, if you want to conquer yourself. Become a part of the V50. Conquer yourself, body, mind, soul, and goals. It's powerful. All right, Ray's coming back. We got it back. Did I hit something or what? I don't I don't know. It just you froze with a smile on your face. It was it was beautiful.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Corley: All right. Got some more questions. the first one was the the cost. Ray McCormick: What's the general cost of it's comparable to a combination nozzle? There you go. Corley: okay, I'm getting rid of these ones. One second. Von Brown wants to know, Ray, is there a place where the traditional smooth board outperforms the hen, if at all? Ray McCormick: That's a good question. I would say you're going to get increased distance. There's probably an increase in striking power, no doubt. so those things and You know, that's the beauty of it. It's right there. It's right there. If that's what you want to do, go right ahead. And I get it. You know, I get it. Firefighters have comfort in the in the stream selection. But You know, eventually I think firefighters will see, and I know a lot have already, they see it. They see the the capability of this pattern And that's that's what makes it outstanding. Corley: Right on. Stephen Negley wants to know, will you bring one to the Orlando Fire Conference in February? I'll bring two. He said two. There you go. Josh Everett's. Do we buy straight from hen or from dealers? Ray McCormick: Currently the sales are online.

Corley: Okay. And finally, final question, you actually caught up here. So but Uncle Ray, have you approached anyone at the FDNY about the hen? If so, are they willing to check it out yet or have you even broached the subject? Ray McCormick: I'm gonna have to say no comment. Corley: Paul Shoemaker wanted to know have you trained on it with EV fires, electric vehicle fires at all? Do you or what are your thoughts on the EV world with this nozzle? Ray McCormick: it's funny you should say that because I I had some inquiries about that. I I know that the coverage pattern would definitely be something that you would want to look at. One of the nice things about the the 95 out of 100 nozzle, which would be probably fall into the call fire range of nozzles is like for New York City, you would get five minutes out of your booster tank. That's that's a big deal. And not only is it a big deal the extended time But mathematically it's easy. When you have a 200 gallon per minute nozzle, it's like, all right, how much time do we have? You know, it doesn't give you a lot of time, especially if you're moving around a car trying to put different parts of it out and stuff. But no, I can see the potential for coverage over that battery area, the undercarriage of of an electric vehicle. but You know, it's certainly the placement issue and the fact that you can shape the stream to fit what you need is very important. You're not gonna get that of it. You know, one of the problems with the Fox stream is a lot of it is wasted at times. You know, if you're if you're trying to get it in somewhere, the bottom half isn't going to go in. This is you can put it on an angle, you can put it straight, you can put it horizontal. It fits. It fits what you need.

Corley: Love it. I absolutely love it. Thank you for man answering, I think about 30 questions just on the different stuff about the hand nozzle. Ray McCormick: Yeah, no, I I mean I get it. people have questions. I'm glad they asked. That's great. yeah, wonderful. Corley: I know I think you've done a great job of explaining you know this innovation. absolutely. And so talk to me. let me see, what were you talking about? big drops, wild land, we talked about it. The need, I like, I want to get some of this other stuff before we wrap up, but the need for thought pieces and tactical ideas about firefighting in magazines. I like this topic. Right. Ray McCormick: So lately I've been writing some stuff just that I haven't on my own. it's not out for publication or anything yet. some of it might, but not everything. And I've been sharing it with another brother who's very thought provoking in his own right. And Basically, like, hey, here's a piece I wrote. What do you think? And then he sends me a piece. What do you think? And I think we need more of that. And it's okay to be wrong and it's okay to, you know, change your ideas and stuff. so I wish there was more of that. I wish there was more of a place for that because You don't have to always write about tactical, you know, this happens because of that, you know, a step-by-step approach. It's nice to talk in theoretical terms as well and to try and pull out and extract different ideas from you know whatever goes on you know whether it's nozzle stream application or whatever it might be be so there's a lot of firefighters that have ideas and are pushed away because of the There's no place for it. Right. And there is a place for it. That's the problem. There is a place, but there isn't a place for it. We need it. And we need people to think about things. You know, when you sit down with somebody that's into something and has some great thoughts on it, it's very engaging And you know, you never know what it's gonna develop into. So I really believe that we need to encourage more of that And don't worry about if you're wrong. It's that's not the point. The point is can you bring light to something that needs some light?

Ray McCormick: I'll just go back to was talking with someone about how the UL has progressed. And one of the things that was interesting was when we were in the study, we we kind of and I know I wanted it, we pushed for that long hallway. to obviously see what the conditions would be like for firefighters going down that hallway to test the effectiveness of stream delivery styles and what happens They del they created a prop based on the long hallway. So I mean, you know, some things come into fruition and not everybody wanted it. Right. You know, but it worked out. It's a great training tool. So there you go. There's a real life example I can give you. Corley: I love it. If you move up in rank, you need to increase your capacity to listen and change. Ray McCormick: Yeah. Yeah. obviously talking with firefighters and I talk with a lot of firefighters across the country on a daily basis and We have a lot of people in high positions who are very close-minded, whether it's because they're just conditioned a certain way or They like to have more authority than they should have under, you know, decision making that maybe won't affect them in the long term, but it might affect the younger firefighters in their charge. The point is it's hard, I get it. They don't want to give up any real estate, but the point is we have a lot of firefighters currently today. that are super interested in nozzles and hoses and a lot of other aspects of the of the fire service. And we have chiefs that just sit up there and tear the paper in half and say, no, not interested. And that is not the way to run things. That is not the way to do things. And you know, You're just hurting yourself and you're hurting your people. Now you don't have to agree with everything, of course, but you have to listen. So yeah, your capacity to listen is very important. I love it.

Corley: Oh yeah, Ray, we did not play your video. Oh, that's I've got more hen nozzle questions. I got three more hen nozzle questions. So we'll play the video. And let you talk, discuss it, or anything you want to do there. Ray McCormick: Yeah, I'll I'll give you a little lead in. This is a a long hallway that we built So that our nozzle firefighter Kyle could go down and you know we were hoping extension would come out there and we'd use the nozzle in the hallway to get to these two rooms. Now these two rooms were basically offset from each other. There's a small hallway in between the two rooms, one on the right, one on the left. The one on the left of your screen is the unvented room. And they have several pieces of furniture in there, like recliners and things. And then the one on the right is a bedroom. And it's your typical bedroom. That room is going to be vented. The windows are going to be taken a little bit. They're going to open them a little bit to start the fire, get it going, and then they're going to further vent it. But what we wanted to do We were looking to reloc replicate of test fire UL did with water usage and how much water we might use. Now, one of the interesting things I'll say in this video is, and I want you to look at it if in case you don't catch it. Kyle does not go into the room on the right, and yet there's a there's a dog leg to the left where the closet is, and he got everything just from being outside And it's just it just speaks to the power of the pattern. And I'll let you watch the rest of it. We we didn't use a lot of water, obviously, in this thing, which goes back to the using the water you brought. so it's a great video.

Corley: So and the other thing is Sam's gonna play the video. I put the link to the YouTube video also in chat. It goes on Facebook and YouTube. I don't know if it'll go to LinkedIn, but okay. Hit it. Three minutes and forty seconds Speaker 3: Set up for burn number one. Speaker 4: The middle finger remote. They do now. Speaker 3: Dead end wall, temporary in place. Corley: They can hear us, but they're watching right now. No, I didn't I didn't grab it. Okay. So you could actually see the load that they had in here for the fire load. Speaker 3: There's your fuel package. Right there's your view hole for the tick. Speaker 4: This is fire number one, a two-room fire divided by a hallway. The Charlie's out the structure, the lock the fire off, update the wheel. The invented room has been lit. I'm watching it off my phone. There we go. Well those birds! I can't break it. The room is gonna be vented further. Ray McCormick: would be enjoying on site. They worked together great. It was It was just a great experience, very professional. Corley: So now they're venting that one room. Getting it lots of air. Well the couch hasn't gone here yet, Ian. It's rolling good Down the hallway.

Ray McCormick: Yeah, we built that hallway to extend out s because what once they once Kyle gets inside it's very short and we blocked it off to save the rest of the house to get use the rest of the hallway for another experiment. Corley: Gotcha. Maximizing your building? Ray McCormick: Yep. Corley: Mauselman's about to come in. Both rooms flashed I look at it. Pretty impressive. Ray McCormick: Yeah. yeah, you can see through that room to the outside with the thermal view there. And there was no negative impact when he was hitting the sealed room. Nice. Yeah. Corley: Yeah. Matt Sleet said looks like the stream does a great job at preventing rebounding. No there was no rebound. Ray McCormick: There was nothing. All day all the rooms stayed in check. We didn't have to run around applying any additional water. Wow. Corley: And that's a pretty good fuel load. a couple more questions coming at you. They're all everybody wants to know about the nozzle, so that's what the questions are. That's fine. Does the hen nozzle produce foam and when should the blade pattern imp which which yeah basically Heath Ray wants to know does the hen nozzle is it used for foam at all or you're not yet?

Ray McCormick: I haven't used it for foam. I think the 95 out of 100 would be a great one for that, though. Yeah. Love it. That one works good. Corley: with it. Alan says, did I understand Ray Wright in saying the fan is adjustable from horizontal to vertical? Ray McCormick: Yes, that's correct. All you have to do if you have it set up horizontally is you just rotate your bail. And that'll that'll put it in the vertical position for you. And then just do a side to side. One of the fires we did a a side to side extinguishment just to try it. Just to see the effect. Yeah, just to see the effect. Corley: Mark Alone says, nozzle stuff aside, what is the biggest thing Ray is seeing in his travels that we are getting wrong as engine companies? Ray McCormick: Poof. Hm, that we're getting wrong. Corley: Hmm. try to close it. Ray McCormick: Yeah. I I I don't know that we're getting one specific thing wrong. I just, you know, I I I think it's just important for firefighters to not put themselves in a position where they're Struggling and that comes from training. You know, if they're struggling with the nozzle, that means you need to train more on it and figure out a better way to hold it and operate it, I think that would probably be the biggest issue. Not that they can't put the fire out. They can still put the fire out, but there is a difference between someone who's really good with the nozzle and someone who's struggling. And there's a lot of training out there. so but that's fine, but you have to practice, you have to put the time in.

Corley: Right. No, absolutely. I love it. Okay, well that gets us to book or books that you think firefighters should read. I love asking this question because I'm always looking for new books. It's been almost a hundred episodes since you've been on. So Wow. I know it was 136, I think was your last time So not quite 100, more like 90 something, but or 80 something. Ray McCormick: But it's been nine L's of leadership. You gotta start there. Corley: It's a great, especially if you listen to the audiobook, that's a great bonus content on lasting Yeah. Ray McCormick: I get these I've had a few of these the Harvard Business series. I don't know if you've ever seen those on mental toughness, on communication. They're basically compilation books of articles that have appeared in that magazine. And they're they're interesting, certainly. They're interesting. I think you know, Frank Lieb's book, of course, is gonna be a great book, is a great book. Corley: cornerstones, cornerstones of leadership, Frank Lieb's. Ray McCormick: I have had the pleasure to call him a friend and work with him and you know he he's the real deal so books from people who are the real deal usually are good books and You know, that includes your book, of course, as well.

Corley: Well, thank you. You're too kind. But I don't yeah, thank you. all right. We have a thing we do. You've done it before, you've done it twice before, but this is all new, well, mostly all new questions Okay. So it's called the Five Questions for Firefighters. There is no right answers. Just your opinion. The points are arbitrary. They're passed out by me with the help of the audience. And so my question for you is, Ray McCormick, are you ready for the Five Questions for Firefighters version 3. 2? Ray McCormick: I am I imagine I am. I have to be. Corley: Excellent. So here we go. Number one, what is the skill that has carried you through your fire service career? Ray McCormick: Well, I think that you'd have to have more than one skill, but I I I would say training was always something I that's not a skill. trying to get encourage people a little bit. I think I I did that. Patience, I think, a little bit. I I would say there's a lot of skills. Leadership is a skill. To care about the the skill level of the f people I worked with was important because, you know When you leave that place, if you've put down a good foundation, your legacy lives on, even when you're not there. And not that you have to have that in your head when you're doing things. But if you've been doing the right thing and it's a place that loves that motto, do the right thing, then it's a very good atmosphere to work in. And so it begets, you know, doing the right thing is not that hard when you when that's what you're set up to do.

Corley: I would love it. For the legacy portion, I give you max points on legacy. Doing the right thing, building and leaving that legacy. I really do. I really do love that answer. Number two, I love this question. It's job town. It's time. You're in route and responding. You have to think of the scene from backdraft where he puts the tape in, the tape deck. Because we're old enough to remember cassette decks. But what song are you playing in route? Ray McCormick: upright. I'm going to say taking care of business. BTO Bachman Turner Overdrive, right? Corley: I like it. I like it. BTO, taking care of business. We have a a Spotify playlist that someone is adding all of the the answers to that's cool. So it'll be the the in-route Spotify playlist. That's good. I like it Love it. Number three, what is your favorite fire service tradition? Speaker 4: Favorite fire service tradition. Ray McCormick: hospitality. I think I I hear people say, Oh, I went, you know, to this fortunately, you know, I went to New York City firehouse, they treated me great. I went to another big city, they treated me great. That's awesome. If we lose that, we've lost some of our identity. Very important for a firefighter in this country to be able to walk into any firehouse and be considered welcome.

Corley: I love that. I absolutely love that. I've never heard that before either. That's a great original answer. I love it. Max points from me. Knocked it out of the park with hospitality, says Josh Edwards. Max points, says Anthony Bram. And then Dan Bender said, BTO. Exclamation point. Max points. Two exclamation points. So absolutely. All right, this one's on the clock. Ray. You have you you get one minute. We had to put a clock on it because people would talk for, but on the clock, you'll be able to see the clock. Who are the four people You would put on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service. Ray McCormick: Oh boy. Chief Vincent Don Patty Brown hm yeah I'll put my dad on there And another person that had a big influence on me, Terry Hatton. Wow There's but you know, it's that's a tough question because I had so many mentors you know that would just you know touch you different ways and You know, but there's so many more deserving of that, you know. But absolutely. Absolutely. Corley: Hey, I it might be I can't tell Dunn Brown, your father, Terry Hatton, that's a really hard Mount Rushmore to top in any way, shape, or form. And you did it in 25 seconds. So that that might, I don't know if that's the fastest. We need to keep track. Josh Everett said quickest of four. Absolute max points, four for four. Easy max points on those answers, brother. And then finally, you've answered this question before, but I we'll see if anything's changed on it. Okay. Heavy fire, searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES?

Ray McCormick: well if I the answer is the nozzle. Corley: I would be surprised if it was anything different. Ray McCormick: But if I could have done enter search vent, maybe then it would be a dead heat. Right on. Corley: ES is that ESV, intersearch event? Ray McCormick: I guess so. Corley: They say max, max. Frank Leib says max, max, max, max points. And Jake Dill said max points. So there you go. Five for five, max points from Lieutenant Ray McCormack on the Five Questions for Firefighters. And that officially makes scrap number 218 in the books, my brother. Well, how can people get a hold of you? If they want to get a hold of you, ask questions, find out more information. Ray McCormick: well, Facebook is certainly one channel. I'm on Facebook, email F I R E and Y M E N at Aol dot com I appreciate you having me on. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about what I'm involved in now. And I really think that you know, the modern fire deserves a modern approach, so Corley: Hey, brother, I appreciate you coming on, being willing to field all the questions. There's been a lot of interest and what better way to get it than there? So I absolutely appreciate you spending your evening with us. Everybody else, firehousevigilance. com, go there, housekeeping time, become a vigilante, five bucks a month. The price of a cup of coffee You get to join up, you get to come to things like the scrap after party, which is happening in about five minutes, where Ray will agree to come in there and get roasted by the vigilantes. There's also the swag only shop, which is going live tomorrow. Hopefully, if I get everything done, I'm on duty tomorrow, so we'll actually see if we get it all done, but we'll see. coming up on the on the scrap, we got Ron Smith. It's training seconds Followed by high-rise firefighting himself, Brent Brooks. The final two months of 2023 is loaded up with excitement and it's still going strong. Vigilanes, I'll post the link in the private group like I always do. So look for that there. Firemanship is coming up. Coming up quick. Cyber Monday. Don't forget to show up on Cyber Monday and register for firemanship. They're posting their classes. It's going to be amazing. My brother, Raymond Cormir, thank you for being a phenomenal guest once again.

Corley: Thanks for having me. Audience, you make the scrap magical. I absolutely, man, without your questions, man, I'm telling you, it's thank you so much for tuning in and sharing your evening with us. I love you all. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning. Everybody, stay safe out there.