Weekly Scrap #304 - Marc Davidson, small unit leadership

Corley: Firemanship is fast approaching. It is almost here. If you were there last year, you know how amazing it was. If you've been involved with firemanship. You know how amazing it is. And so it is coming up in July 14th through the 18th. Man, get registered. If you're not, why not? It's in Aurora right outside of Chicago. It's an amazing, amazing experience. Here's the deal. I am teaching two days of workshop, the same workshop two days in a row on Thursday and Friday. But right now Registration is extremely low for those two workshops. it is the culture forge, it is my the class that that me and Sam and Rob Fisher have been Building, working on, putting on. It's an amazing class. If you've been a part of it, then you know all about the teams, the mascots, the spaghetti, the the the value building, the Lego. You know, you know what it's about And it's a it's the class I always wanted to attend. And that's the class that I built. And it's an amazing, it's an amazing time. But the problem is I don't have to pull the plug on it. If people don't register for it. So that being said, go and register for the Culture Forge so that it can happen. If not, I get it. Life is life. Go register. I'll see you at Firemanship.

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Corley: Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance. It is weekly scrap number 304. My guest tonight is Mark Davidson. He is a proud father of two fantastic adult human beings married to his beautiful wife for 34 years and a 40-year public servant with over eight years in the Marine Corps and 32 in fire and rescue. He volunteered in North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Maryland, and is a 30-year veteran of Fairfax County Fire Rescue, where he is a captain. He served in the training division as a basic training officer, helping graduate over 150 recruits, was charged with standing up the officer development training section for the department. Which has gone on to train countless future and existing officers in the organization, and he is currently a safety officer. Mark teaches on leadership and tactical fieldcraft and coordinates multiple training opportunities for aspiring and incumbent officers. He is also part of the founding team of the Northern Virginia Fire and Rescue Leadership Development Institute and currently sits on its advisory board. He's a presenter at FDIC, Firehouse Expo, Firehouse World. He's published in multiple journals. He sits on advisory boards. He sits on committees. He writes textbooks. There's it's yeah, it goes on. Okay. He dislikes long walks on the beach and he hates golf. So welcome my brother Mark Davidson back to the scrap for episode number 304.

Mark Davidson: Damn glad to be here Damn glad to be here. Corley, I appreciate you know us being able to have it chat, man. This is the this is the important stuff. The stuff you're doing is vital. opening up ears and getting people thinking and I appreciate that we're we're gonna have a a little bit of a chat tonight. Corley: So thank you for being a part of it. you were the one of the top the I'd say top one of the original 25 guests You were, I think you were on scrap episode number 37, I believe, which makes you round the guest number 25, roughly. and on that one, you suggested this book, which has been one of the most transformational books of my journey. I mean it's an I was talking about it off camera right before we went live. This is probably the single most highlighted book word for word, as far as it's not a big book by any stretch, but I've probably highlighted a higher percentage of this book than any other book that has been suggested on the scrap or that I've read. So small unit leadership, Dan Dridge Malone. All right, that's what we're gonna be talking about. But I wanted to bring it up because that we have some history with that.

Mark Davidson: Yeah, and just real quick on that, because this becomes a common theme with a lot of the classes I teach, I always talk through the lens or the perspective of the military, that book's a good example where there are things you do have to translate. Because if somebody goes in there literal and Andrew's just talking about, you know a machine gun section or whatever and you take it literally like oh that's that's not what we do we don't have machine guns right we don't have machine guns And it's that idea of leadership is very much a small dog petite canine conversation. It's all about perspective. Everybody is saying the exact same thing. But translating it and finding something that that hooks you that you go, oh, that makes sense to me is the vital part. And that's That's why I think that book is just very well done for, like you said, it's not a PhD level, you know. qualitative analysis study, none of that stuff. It is just basic stuff talking about leadership in that environment. But when you translate it into the environment, whatever environment you're in, fire service. It's it's good stuff.

Corley: Oh, it's amazing. so I always say thank you and I always give you credit for turning me on to the book. before we get going, anything else you want to add to the bio or the intro? Anything I left out Mark Davidson: No, it's it's always painful and awkward and you know it is always pitching in from the cheap seats. Just I I I've gotten ridiculous opportunities i as i have always wanted to say i still have not graduated 13th grade and somehow i keep on stumbling into these opportunities you know the the one thing you won't see on any of my stuff is you know, master's, PhD, associates. Corley: All the all the letters. Mark Davidson: Yeah, yeah. I take a bunch of classes, but that doesn't count. So yeah, no, I appreciate it. It just I I've been given a lot and I, you know, hopefully I'm trying to to give back. Corley: It's awesome. No, it's awesome. And it and it there is I love reading bios to my guests. My guests almost always are humble. I mean, that's just the truth of it. They're they're they are filled with humility and the and I love reading their bio and then they get super uncomfortable and it's awkward and it's almost like a it's like it puts me in a position of power. And so I really enjoy and then I then I but anyway it's so much fun So anyway, long story short, let's do the sponsors and then we will be on with the scraps. So here we go. They're one of my favorites, the soap. I absolutely love it. Wash your balls. I say it each and every time. Get the cancer off you. So there you go. The sponsors are done. It is time to scrap. And we are here to talk about small unit leadership. We are in your wheelhouse, my brother. And You highlight the fire services failure to invest in company officers, but you have a take on it that I want to hear and I think the audience needs to hear. So I'm going to give you the mic and say run with it to set the stage for what we're going to talk about this evening

Mark Davidson: Yeah, I mean it's, you know, we we have legions of our brothers and sisters who maybe well-intentioned, maybe not, who who sit at bang on the keyboard and just flame people all day long and say, you know, small example, we have a member of ours who's an incredible singer and he's going on to big big big things, I think. Quick pitch for Caleb Mitchell. Great music. Anyways, the point is he he he does this music. He's an incredible singer. And he recently posted a video where he kind of said, hey, look, you know I I get some of my brothers and sisters are gonna break my chops or or make fun of me or whatever. And I I was that just that just crushes me, you know, because we have people that or doing incredible things. And the first thing somebody wants to do is just get out there and totally smoke them. And that to me, so all that to say, I I say something that I think sometimes it comes across as blunt, direct. maybe not tactful in that the fire service is failing its company officers. It when you look at the investment that goes into a new company officer, and you compare that to the investment of time and resources that goes into a new firefighter, it's it's oh yeah I mean think about any organization volunteer career it doesn't matter You just look at that proportionality of what the what the organization is going to invest in, a new proby, new recruit, you know, training academy, drill manual, the the time they spent in any organization today. To prepare them. And yet a new company officer, a majority of the time in the fire service, is basically maybe take one class, maybe two classes, take a test or get voted on or whatever, and boom, you're in charge. So the spin I have on that though, because there are a lot of organizational and strategic level leaders are like, hey, not me. I'm doing a lot of good stuff. I'm pushing for that. And there are organizations where they do focus on the company officer and they are making those investments. So the point with that, more than anything, is that It is not a shot at any organizational strategic leader. It's not a shot at any fire department to say you are a bad fire department.

Mark Davidson: It isn't. It's just a recognition of what it is. globally across the American Fire Service, when you say, show me a proportion of what we are all investing in company officers, it is Very minimal. That's just a functional reality. There are pockets of excellence. There are organizations that are doing good stuff, but in the main, it is not prioritized in preparing them for this new job the same way you treat you. prepare a new firefighter off the street to give them those skills, those KSAs that they need to function on the incidence. And it's just a call to action. That's all it is. It's just be honest. Nobody get your don't get in your feelings. Don't personalize it. Just look. And when you look at that, it it is it is a simple truth. and and that to me is is the call is for us to really make a statement that we need to do better, we need to focus on the company officer, because that is where At the end of it, in my humble opinion, that's where the entire fire service, that's the linchpin. That is the absolute linchpin for what happens on the floor in the firehouse. That company officer is it

Corley: So yeah. Oh yeah, I love that. Now how why and and it's a great point because I've never heard it put that way. How much we invest in a in a in a brand new rookie probationary firefighter, we invest so much training in them. The certificate is it is it strictly because it is a certification-based thing in most Mark Davidson: jurisdictions is it go ahead well it it is easy to point to that say hey you know n f p 1010 now says you must do these well guess what 10 10 20 now does those same things. It has those JPRs, it has the same idea of hey, these are the the basic standards, the JPR is dictating what you need to know and learn. I think it's a function. I'm a big history nerd, so everything is about history. History defines where we are and where we are going. And when you look at the history of the fire service, it is. absolutely essential common to prepare somebody who's never fought fire who's never been on an incident scene you know cat in a tree you know, two alarm rager, EMS call, whatever. You have to prepare that new that person into this new environment that they maybe haven't experienced at all.

Speaker 2: Right. Mark Davidson: And everybody starts somewhere. You know, the salty veteran is like, oh, I've been doing this forever. Well, you at some point didn't know squat about this. Somebody spent the time, trained you, invested in you. And because it's a new job. It's easy to look at it that way. And again, the history of the American Fire Service, when you look at how leaders were made, in particular the volunteer routes that we all grew out of It was not even a test. It was more there was there was a vote, there was somebody you knew when you look at the historical analogy, and again, no, no, not blasting volunteers or anything like that, just that recognition of where we were, the system evolves and we fast forward to the municipal model. And now it is a test. Now it is about taking that test. And then that idea that you take a couple base certification classes, take a test, you get on a list, and then just wait your time. You get promoted in some way, shape, or form. That difference in not fundamentally looking at them as two new jobs. This is a brand new job to be a firefighter, do task-level skills. That first line supervisor, that first promotion to lieutenant sergeant, whatever it may be, captain, whatever that first rank is, that is a brand new job. The other flaw for the fire service is they don't look at each successive rank as a new job. You become, let's say you start out as a lieutenant, that's a new job. Being a captain, that's a new job. Being a chief officer, that's a new job And instead of treating it like that, we go, well, if you are a good firefighter, good chauffeur, apparatus, technician, whatever, you're gonna be a good lieutenant. Right. And you know, there's two great books about this. Legacy One is the Rising to Your Level of Incompetence, the Peter Principle.

Corley: The Peter principle, absolutely. Mark Davidson: At some point you outrun the skills, right? And you will promote to your level of incompetence. Corley: Level of incompetence. I was going to say rise to the level of your incompetence. Mark Davidson: Yeah, and it you know you just anybody can can look at that. It's somebody who was just a great firefighter who didn't, you know, just gets to that lieutenant level, that first line supervisor doesn't do well, or that Great lieutenant who now starts to exceed this their skills as a captain. And certainly by the time you get to chief, unless there's been an investment in saying this is a new job, you start to fail. And the other book is what you know, what got you there won't get you here you know that idea of those skills and I always go back to the military the military invests so much time and effort in training at each rank There's a specific pattern where this training pipeline of training, education, experience repeats itself at each rank because they know that is a it the the skill set you need to succeed at this lower level of leadership, direct leadership. Starts to change as you get to organizational and strategic level leadership and to just assume that because you did it good here, you're just going to transfer these skills. They're not transferable. You need to train it as a brand new job. And then the last part of that is just the scope of the problem. If you've invested so much money, if your budget is finite and you've invested 70% of your training budget, then we can generally agree it's a high percentage for that new firefighter. What do you have left to train a pretty large cohort of company officers? The cohort the cohort gets smaller as you get to those strategic level leaders And then think about you know EFO and CPSC and all these other training environments that occur at that level. Well the costs are much smaller because now you're down to one or two or five or depending on the size of the organization, those numbers. So it's easy on that end to make that investment or they make the investment in themselves because guess what? Bigger paycheck, a lot more resources, you know, ability to control their time compared to the company officer who still need deep in it.

Mark Davidson: You got this large group, which represents a large cost. All those things start to roll into it. And then from a historical standpoint, from just a fiscal looking at the dollars and cents standpoint that that leads to this legacy model where company officers are just left stuck in the middle and they don't have the time, the resources, the money being invested in them. the same way. It's certainly down at the bottom and can you can make the argument that at the top they have the resources, they have the time, and it's a smaller group, so the organizations can dedicate a little more. to it. Corley: They can. Not doesn't mean they do. But no, I think a very, very good job of articulating the issue without a doubt, man. And and and the factors that have caused us to get to where we're at. And one thing I love about what you're saying is you're saying, look, this is just the reality of where we're at. So we can now have a discussion about it. Yeah. I do love that. a couple things I wanted to dig into because you brought up a few things as you spoke. one is like you brought up Caleb Mitchell. What was his name? Was it would I get the name?

Mark Davidson: Caleb Mitchell, yeah, firefighter with us in Fairfax County. a great firefight, young firefighter who has this incredible talent. And so now he is doing both. And this is this is his, you know And if you get out there, shout out for Caleb. Corley: No, absolutely. Go check him out. Go download the music. I'll have to I'll check it out later. We'll put it yeah, absolutely. But but you brought it up. He he said I know I'm gonna get roasted. What I know that every place, every, it's not unique to firefighters. I know this. There's haters everywhere. But I I do say this. It seems like We eat our own more than others. Is it just idle hands? And is it what is it that makes firefighters a I d we're a brotherhood in it and and when people say the brotherhood's dead, I think they're wrong because when you need it, it shows up in spades. But What what is it about it that makes us eat our own? Mark Davidson: Yeah, yeah. The brother, brother, brother and sisterhood, brother and sisterhood. That idea of of that, I think, is again a function of who we are, the environment we work in, because you're right Accountants have haters, you know, the dog catcher's got haters, blah, blah, blah. But do they live a significant part of their life with that family? you know, air quotes and and I have a whole thing talking about the family and the fire service. You know, there's just because you're a family doesn't mean you're functional. Remember that family in California had their kids locked in the friggin' basement. Technically they were a family, right? But that idea of the level of disrespect we can get to and that idea is is born, you know, what's that say famili familiarity breeze contempt I once had some strategic level folks in a discussion and we were trying to make this argument that the fire service, the fire department is an agency just like all the others. And to an extent it is. You know, when you're looking at a municipal-based service, volunteer career, it doesn't matter, you are a function of government. And that means that there are certain things you have to adhere to. Just because you're a fire department, doesn't mean you can have animal house. Doesn't work that way. We have standards that are expectations for that, city, county, town, whatever it is.

Mark Davidson: But with that, the question I asked very directly to an admin assistant was there, do you wash your boss's underwear? Giggle giggle. No, oh my god. And I looked at the boss guy, high-level guy. Do you wash your admin's underwear? No my God, no. Well, guess what? In a firehouse, the shift deputy, a very high-ranking strategic level leader in our world. is in a firehouse, they may go to the laundry room. The expectation is that if they're swapping laundry out, they're gonna fold the underwear that's here. That could be the two-second proby. They're gonna fold around where I put away. Same thing. The probies gonna expend it do that like they do for everybody else. They're breaking bread together at the dinner table. They are living, depending on the department, the organization, how it's set up, a third, a quarter of their life much less counting overtime, Mando, the whole thing. Volunteer world, the dynamic is the same. You are in an environment where you are much closer. Right. And so you get to see that person, their warts, the things you like, don't like, you you've got to deal with that. And so that familiarity gets to a point where like I I really don't like 'em. And then you add social media and that Anonymity where they're just like, oh, I'm gonna say the the cruelest, most effed up stuff you can imagine because I'm banging on a keyboard.

Corley: Safety of my keyboard, right? Mark Davidson: Oh yeah, yeah, 100%. Corley: 100% No, no, and I I I just don't know why, but yeah, the familiarity absolutely yeah, I just I don't see plumbers, you know, getting on getting on Facebook and blasting other plumbers for using the wrong pipe wrench. and you know digging the ditch with a different technique of spade, you know? Mark Davidson: Yeah. Well, to be fair, there is some of that. Yeah, I I get nerdy on on videos for DIY and home repair because you know and and my boy's a contractor and so I'm always sending him stuff. And they they do get on there and roast each other. The difference is the expectation for them is not we are a family. We are brothers. We are sisters. We are in this together. I may risk my life for you. You may risk risk. your life for me, we are all going to risk our lives for the community we serve. That's the expectation. And I think it's that that delta, that difference. is what makes it because plumbers, you know, you're a plumber. You're not a family of of plumbers. Yeah. The fire service has has raised this expectation of who we should be. And then we don't meet it. We, you know, we we miss that mark, and that's why I think it's even more stark and and and dark sometimes

Corley: Right on. No, no, it's a beautiful breakdown. we got questions coming from the audience. Are you ready? Some are on topic, some are off topic. I'm gonna stick with I like this one from Jeremy Humphrey. He says, Captain Davidson, if you were to sign the ideal officer class, what features and qualities would you incorporate? That's a nice soft toss right down your pipe. Yeah. So you can crush it. Mark Davidson: So I I talk about five specific things that the fire service should be training its company officers on. And the the one thing that I've always got to talk about is that, you know, I do spend a lot of time talking about the principles of small unit leadership, team dynamics, crew resource management, and conflict resolution. Those are the four specific elements. And then within that conflict resolution, you blow that up into emotional intelligence, communication skills, a whole bunch of things that you have to get to to be effective at conflict risk. So those are the four things. And and then I small unit leadership. What was the second one? Small unit leadership, team dynamics. Corley: Team dynamics. Okay. I didn't get it written down. So I was wondering.

Mark Davidson: Team dynamics. Crew resource management, which is the essentially the tool that the a specific tool that you can use to help build your team. Now is that is that basic leadership Corley: Is that based off the cockpit resource management? Is that the one that evolved from it? Okay. Crm. Okay. Mark Davidson: CRM. And then the the last one is conflict resolution. Which you said also incorporates Yeah, because then when you're talking about conflict resolution, you're talking about the ability to communicate, understanding yourself, emotional intelligence, which you know we get all twitchy and like fainting goats when we talk about, you know emotions and love our feelings. Right? So those are are four critical things that we have to teach and educate our company officers about What some people start to think or or discuss is that somehow that means I'm leaving out tactical competence. And I am not. Strategy and tactics is actually the number one thing on the list. It's okay. So that's they're all vitally important. But I how do I establish trust? I can't trust you if I think you're going to get me killed on the incident scene because you don't know what you're doing. So tactical competence is equally as important as understanding small unit leadership skills, team dynamics, CRM, and conflict resolution. Those elements are all there The the issue we sometimes have is the understanding that at the end of the day, tactical competence, understanding strategy and tactics. Is a small percentage of the overall job. It is disproportionate in its inability, in its ability to get us hurt or killed or the community hurt or killed, right? Right But at the end of the day, when you think about, you know, I have dear friends at work in, you know, hashtag jobtown in in in Nueva York. And you know, I asked them the question, like what percentage of your day? When you're you're the the pinnacle of the fire service, right? You're you're knee-deep in it. What percentage of your day are you making tactical decisions that in the next five seconds are going to get somebody hurt or killed? Or in general on the incident scene where you're displaying that skill? And in that environment, they say 10% max. So when I go someplace else, including my organization, the rural, excuse me, metropolitan suburban environment. you know, 10%.

Mark Davidson: We have busy companies, we have very busy houses, especially closer to the DC inside the Beltway. But Again, it's a low percentage. The rest of that time, the 90, 80, plus percent, whatever number you want to pick, is in the firehouse Where you're building the team that's going to be able to function on the incident scene. And so without having, it doesn't, it doesn't even have to be proportioned. I'm not suggesting that the fire service needs to to only dedicate 10% of our training and education towards tactics because it's proportional 10% of the time and 90% to these other soft skills, which is a horrible term. But maybe some balance, you know, how about 50-50? How about approaching a larger percentage of all those things? Because If you're not building that team, if you're not displaying that leadership, if you're not conducting, if you're not effective at conflict resolution and how you deal with the people in your firehouse. A hundred percent you're gonna be a shit show on the incidence. Oh yeah. Corley: Oh yeah. Mark Davidson: It will absolutely there is no like there is no light switch light switch for dysfunction in the firehouse This idea that, oh, when the tones drop, we'll be about our business and whatever disgruntled pissy behavior we display here will just go away because the tone, the lady in the ceiling said, go do go fix it.

Corley: Yeah, we'll flip the switch and we'll all be rock stars now. Mark Davidson: Yeah, it doesn't work that way. I mean it's counterintuitive because now you're you're moving into this high stress, dynamic, time crunch environment. And anybody that's a student of the craft knows you don't perform better under those situations. Your tendency physiologically, psychologically, is to perform worse. Because all these stressors are going on, that the cortisol dumped, the adrenaline, all those things are fighting, you have to fight against those to perform well. So if your baseline is dysfunction and now you're trying to direct people and get them to work together in this complex environment. Corley: It ain't gonna just happen. Forget about it. Yeah. No doubt about it. Great, great answer. Great question, Humphrey. And honestly, small unit leadership, team dynamics, crew resource management, conflict resolution, and balanced with tactical competence. Mark Davidson: Yeah, strategy and tactics. Gotta, you gotta Gotta know what you're doing on the incidence scene, because without that, then the other stuff kind of doesn't matter. Corley: So that's just that right there is just a a blueprint for building an officer development program. Just boom, right there, five steps. If you if you get nothing else but that out of the scrap Congratulations, all listeners. Jim Ed Mills wants to know why is it that the higher you promote, oh wait, we we've been talking about this, but yeah, the higher you promote, the less time we spend training for that position And how do we fix that as a fire service? Which is basically what we're talking about, this whole opening right here. So J.

Mark Davidson: And even though I I said, you know It's not sarcasm, you know, please, chief officers, don't don't hate me. It's just the functional reality, you become a strategic level leader. There's no There is no way you have more time. In a sense, you have less time. You are dealing with much bigger problems. That is just a given. Anybody that promotes up and is going, oh They get to ride around a buggy and hang out in their office and it's living the dream. Dude, you have not spent time with those people because they are miserable. They are doing a million different things trying to control this huge organism. It is miserable work. So I'm not suggesting they just have oodles of time, but they have control of time. Their ability to manage that. Now that in that, if you think about it. . Any effective organizational strategic level leader you've ever had in your life was a killer time manager. They have that ability to delegate, to manage. to schedule they or they don't survive. They they just don't. Their ineffectiveness will display itself. So that control of time means that they can invest in higher education. in the certification, in time at NFA, whatever it is, they they balance that. Now it's not less work, it's more work. But compared to a company officer on the line, in again, volunteer career doesn't matter, they don't have that control of time. They are in the firehouse. They are on the floor. And so for them to manage that with less resources, and that's the other part of the of the strategic level leaders, is they have more resources.

Corley: Right. Mark Davidson: The functional reality. So Corley: No. Mark Davidson: Yeah, it's a the point is held true. It's not like the fire service is just dumping all this stuff at them that's making them better. And particularly when you make that transition to chief officer, that's that first step. There's not a lot of fire departments that are saying, hey, we have to have a chief officer's course. We have to train. And being a battalion chief in a large organization is distinct from being a deputy or an assistant. And each one of those needs the same time and attention dedicated to it. Corley: Love it. Eli Babcock coming at you. He has a good question here. He says, Cap, if you could only choose one. So he's got a he's got the If the either or, but would you prefer to do a training program prior to promotion or monthly ongoing training sessions? He says both are ideal to me, but which would you prefer? Mark Davidson: Yeah, prior. Prior, prior, prior. And prior, this is prior starts in recruit school. Prior starts as a new member of the organization, you start teaching followership at that level. You start talking about followership, that translates to the discussion on leadership because Any new firefighter at some point is going to be on leadership role, whether they're a OIC on an ambulance or they end up in a situation where they're in front of the community member and they've got to make a decision or they're left to their own devices and they have to pick between a a hard, difficult right and an easy wrong, those are discussions about leadership and lead leadership of self. So you start at that low point, at that low point, at that early point To start that discussion. So it's not brand new. Because if all you do is wait till, oh, they're on the list, well, let's train the shit out of them now. What were you doing for the last five, seven, ten years?

Corley: No, no. Mark Davidson: Those were the wasted opportunities. And now that die is cast. They've already essentially developed the habits or lack of habits that are gonna breed success or failure. So you have to start early. And in the model I talk about for this, Big Green Gun Club, you know, it is the Marine Corps. They s They have 14, I believe now 15, they added a 15th leadership trait where they start teaching those leadership traits in recruit school. Those in recruit school. In basic training. And they they learn them rote. They know the JJ Did Tie Buckle is the acronym, Justice Judgment. They learn them all rote. And then very quickly, as a leader at each level, you then start learning to apply those. And they they use those 14 leadership traits by which to evaluate subordinates and leaders. And at every level, up to and including what I refer to as the CEO of the corporation, the Commandant of the Marine Corps, those leadership traits are the standard by which the entire organization operates. So when you start teaching that at basic training to a brand new recruit, over time those start to think they've got those 14 leadership traits in their head. And then now comes the opportunity for observational learning. They graduate basic training, they go out to their first assignment, and they see a young corporal or a young sergeant, those first line supervisors who's doing those things or not. But now they can evaluate that and start making decisions to go, do I follow this? I was told that you know you need to display tact You know, this is a key leadership trait. So I want to make sure that I I don't see this from that individual, but I know that's the expectation, so I have to figure that out. And it becomes a much better path when you're doing that investing early than waiting till oh we're about to promote train the shit out of them. So to long-winded answer to start early before promotion to then get put them in that environment. And then the best cases you do both.

Corley: And no, and that's phenomenal because it really is about just the shared values at that point that that you're instaling is these is what we value as a in a human being, and this is what we measure each other by. And you're setting that standard from the from the gate. Speaker 4: Yeah. Corley: And so you brought up the big green gun club and I have a question here sitting waiting, and I kind of like this question. I want to hear your answer to it. It comes again from Jeremy Humphrey. He says, Captain Davidson What's the biggest challenge for veterans transitioning to the fire service and how can fire departments attract these qualified candidates? Mark Davidson: Oh, so excited. I love that question. Oh, we can have a whole scrap just on this. First of all, everybody, only my mother calls me Captain, so everybody else call me Mark. So yeah, again, I could go down this rabbit hole. I've been pushing this for the 30 years I've been with the organization and I just feel so strongly that the pipeline for the veteran community of fire service is it should be bigger and and more robust. They have skills, traits, characteristics that we want and value. And they this is an environment for them, which was the same thing for me, that that feels much closer to home. Right? Much some of those same thing. It's not the same. I'll argue paramilitary into the ground on this one But the in large measure that family environment, that kinship, having a very concrete mission, you know, and that's why I have all the respect in the world for our brothers and sisters in blue with with guns. Because that's just a world of gray all day long. Whereas the fire service has a very concrete mission. It is black and white. The cat's in the tree, get the cat down. They got a stub toe. Pack your bags, we'll take you to the hospital. Your house is on fire. We're going to put water on it, put it out, and take care of you. just very there are there are days where it can get gray and there's you know nothing's ever ideal but compared to that other public safety arena This because the kinship for most military folks, and I went through the same thing, is oh, they got guns.

Mark Davidson: I like guns. I want to play with them. But what the where to me it it we offer a better environment is that mission. The mission set aligns more with the militaries of Go to the storm the hill. Okay, I'll storm the hill. Do this. I will do that. That environment we we offer. And I think we should be doing more to draw those those vets into our community and and I I I did a whole thing, which I've one of my retirement gigs is to is to I started a thing green to red and I will hopefully have more time on my hands to deal with it more, but that idea of Sending that message to the vet community to go from green to the red side. You know, this is a place for them to land. Corley: I love it. I love it. I think that like you said, it's a very, it's an awesome resource to try and and tap. Mark Davidson: Yep. Yep. Corley: Boom. I like it. I like it. I'm looking. I'm looking. I like this one from Daniel Valenzuela. He says, what type of ongoing evaluation or training For people who have been in the position for a while, would you like to see added? Like should we have a recertification almo? And I don't know if I want to put that on it, but but what kind of re-evaluation do we need?

Mark Davidson: Yeah, I think if I'm hearing that right, he's speaking to that idea of continuing education, continuing investing in training, because again, even if It goes back to that previous question, which if you only could do one, which would you do? I would invest in pre-promotional printing, preparing them for that so they they can succeed. But the best answer is to do both. And so that investment in continuing to train is the same. Again, again, look at our EMS structures. There is no scenario where 10 years ago you got your paramedic cert, so we'll see you in 30 years. You're good. And yet, officer one, yeah, officer both from third. You know, it's it's you know It it is a very strange system. And then since again, there's no organizational requirement, there's no standard that says you must, you shall, the organizations are like, hey, well, if we don't have to Yeah, then we we can't. We don't have the money, so let's invest it where we have to. And so yeah, that and if you're talking about metrics and how you evaluate your leaders at every level Yeah, it's gotta be more robust than most standardized evaluation systems. You know, if you use a performance evaluation that doesn't look at command presence, the leadership skills that we you know tacked, your ability, and even 360s. We've I've never been In the fire service. I don't know too many places that truly have that. And then when you look at some of the environments in the military where subordinates are evaluating superiors and peers are evaluating peers. It it really makes you work harder because you do not want to get evaluated as not meeting the standard because, especially from your peers. There's draw you know good and bad to everything, but the idea of your peers are going to see your worst moment as opposed to the superior who maybe see pops in and goes, oh look, they're doing the right thing. They walk away and you're like You know, you're done. Your peers will see that.

Speaker 5: Right. Mark Davidson: So yeah, I I feel in general as far as evaluations in the any municipal environment or it's very difficult to get a good system and we need to do better because without that metric, without that push, we kind of sink to the lowest common denominator. Corley: Hm. No. Man, evaluations are something that's been a I I I don't want to say a passion, that's not the right word A sticking point for me for a long time. I've done I've downloaded so many different ones. I've I've researched even the Marine Corps evaluation system, the army's evaluation system, quite a few industries I just like I'm I'm I've always been fascinated with trying to find a good system for the fire service and have had no luck whatsoever. Mark Davidson: If anybody knows of one, please share it with the group because I know it's it's it is like the the unicorn trying to find it and and then share that model that works, it's effective. And then you get into the whole thing with organizations that have CBAs and and you know, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Corley: And it becomes a yeah, absolutely. And it And if it's not tied to anything, if it has no teeth, then what's the point of it? And that's where the CBA really does take the teeth out of it, but at the same time they exist for a reason. So it's just a it's a it's a giant Yeah. Mess. There is one I'll send you. The HHR, humil humility, honesty, and something else. man, I could be getting that wrong. Cat from Florida sent it to me and I actually had my company officers each one actually had my entire battalion do one on me And I my plan was I was gonna see how it went, and then I was gonna have all each company do their company officer.

Mark Davidson: Oh wow. Corley: And also the comp the fellow company officers do it. After I finished it, I it was brutally honest. i i wasn't sure everybody was ready for it so i kind of shelved it for a while but anyway it was it was a interesting experiment Mark Davidson: Yeah, and and and that I mean think about that. That's what it takes as a leader who's willing to hear things they may not want to hear. You don't want to ask a question you don't want the answer to. But if you're asking the question, you have to be prepared for everything that comes with it I mean, a hundred percent, you know, I did it's about understanding yourself. And I my my one of my worst traits as a leader on the floor is I'm just a spaz. Not on the incidencing, hopefully. I try not to sound like I'm being chased like by a bear, but I'm always into a bunch of different things. And I know that has an impact. on the people that I'm I'm responsible for. So I try to insulate them just like I try and insulate my family from, all right, I'm spinning a lot of a lot of plates to get this thing moving. If I just allow that to spill over, because then what does that look like in a firehouse? I'm in the office. I'm not on the floor. I'm not out for the drills. I'm not at, you know, doing the things I should be doing in the firehouse. And that becomes really difficult. Having somebody tell you that, say you've got to do better, sometimes hurts people's feelings and they don't want to hear about that.

Corley: Oh brother, I asked for it and I thought, you know, I'm a pretty I love Negative feedback. I told myself that. When I got them and I read them, dude, it was a gut check. I was like offended. You know, I had to get I had to I had to live through the defensive, you know, and get past my own self so that I could honestly take the evaluations. Mark Davidson: It was rough. Yeah, but that's awesome. That's good stuff. Corley: you mention we and you you do a great job of bringing up that this is a problem. But and but you make a great analogy when you say tones drop, we go take care of Mrs. Smith. We take care of the problems in spite of in spite of our lack. You know, go ahead. Yes. Mark Davidson: Yeah. And that's the thing. That's the other part of it is that generally we succeed. Generally, you know, even did like you said, I love that, in spite of We have company officers that are going to push. They're not going to allow failure and they're not just going to go, well, they didn't give me what I want. We have those people who will just sit down and not move. Well, they, you know They didn't make it rain. They didn't train me. They didn't do this. So I'm just gonna complain or not do anything until they tell me to do it. But by and large, we are so fortunate that the fire service has so many people and in a lot of a lot of our organizations and a lot of our people don't recognize how good we have it that in general in the fire service, a majority of the people want to be there. They want to be doing, I mean, take that and compare it to some, you know, minimum wage job at pick a place. I'm not going to blast anybody. But you know, they are not motivated to excel. We have an environment where people want to excel. And so in spite of Not having all the tools in their toolbox, they are gonna push for better. And those are the ones we see at the conferences, those are the ones that are watching these videos those are the ones that are reading the books they're trying and they're they're feeling they they are definitely leaders of self Which is vital.

Mark Davidson: You know, George Washington famously mandated that his officers invest in their own training and education. He made that a requirement because he knew he didn't have enough resources. You know, think Valley Forge. They didn't the the the army, the environment, he didn't have enough to do it on his own. So he said, I need you to do it And that's what our folks do. And so they do succeed. And then that perception of like, well, shit, it ain't broke. Don't fix it. We're making the magic happen. So why do we need to do anything different? And that I would agree. That's that's a good point. Corley: And to that point, are we I mean bottom line is tones drop, we go, we go take care of business, you know, and that's what we do. And no one's gonna sit there and say, hey, you didn't I say no one, but generally speaking, firefighters just put their heads down and go to work. And does that just perpetuate the problem is there is there an answer, or do we just keep beating the drum and spreading the wet message? Mark Davidson: Yeah, and and you know the the hope is is that with recognition, I I would say, you know, because it's 30 years on the job now. And I feel like I see more organizations doing more for company officers. It just appears to be much more common. Now it's still a ridiculously small percentage of the overall fire service, but it's still greater than what it was. So that's that's good. It's just gonna take because there's so many of those organizational and strategic strategic level leaders who are saying, yeah, we have to change. And we've seen that, we see them all over the place. You know, that's there's a reason these things, the the show and the books and all those things are are doing well in our environment because there's a thirst for it. I think as long as we keep on beating the drum, more and more of those leaders will say we have to do this. Plus, the other part of that equation is leading from down under. Is that idea of the folks saying, hey, we want this, we want this, we want this, and they push for it. And getting somehow the two to meet in the middle is is when the magic happens in those organizations that are pushing.

Corley: Nice. Mark Davidson: And to your point about how you know I've never really thought about it that way, but that in spite of really does ring true. Because think about in not Think about municip municipalities that went through huge budget deficits. And the the one that just really strikes me was at a certain point The members were buying their own saw blades, they were bringing their own toilet paper. They they the the organization was not providing, and they were like, we cannot fail. This is our home. We I want to make my home livable, the firehouse, and I want to make sure I have the equipment I need. So they were digging into their own pockets, paying for those basic fundamental things that the organization should provide but couldn't and so to your point in spite of they would they would not allow failure yeah Corley: No. and all we can do is is continue to push. And I do think 28 years for myself before I hung it up, you've made it 30 with Fairfax, but 40 overall in service. I do think it's better. Not that maybe maybe not because of our efforts, but it's definitely better for the collective efforts.

Mark Davidson: I I think so. I I I see that you you see the organizations. I mean, you know. it the places where I get invited to talk. They wouldn't if they weren't doing anything, I wouldn't be talking. I just exactly and all the folks that are talking on leadership that are that are out there. So I I think overall it is it is getting better. We just need it make it more truly universal. Just like it is, there is, I can't think of any fire service organization, small, big, medium. That doesn't train the heck out of its newest firefighters, recruits, probies. There's just something there, right? We just need them to go, well, if you're doing that for that cohort, you need to do it here. And that mindset needs to grow and take root Corley: All right, we got more questions coming from the audience, but I want to throw this at you because you emphasize, when you teach, you emphasize team success on the fire ground starts in the firehouse. And I think we can all agree with that What's a common mistake you see new company officers make when trying when they're trying to build that trust and that cohesion within their crew? What's a common mistake? How can they avoid it?

Mark Davidson: Yeah, the same mistake I made. Oh, I must know what I'm doing. I that I mean just it's that simple. That that assumption that I have to I'm in charge, so I have to have the answers. If they come to me It's, you know, what's a classic line when you don't know? I don't know, but I will find out. That will wear thin really quick if you're constantly doing it. And what's even worse is if you bullshit it and you go, Oh yeah, no, I got it. And you know, the fire service is great for that, just like the military. We our members can smell bullshit a mile away Corley: Yeah. Mark Davidson: So the assumption that as a leader I have to have the answer because I'm in charge. And that's why I always talk about it not always, I've evolved into CRM as a key concept and tool for our leaders to use at the especially at the company level because it assumes that you may not have the answer and by relying on the team having the team be the other eyes having the team in a in a mindset that if I see something, I am gonna say something. I mean it's really shit simple because it's like some highfalutin concept. It's so simple. Just use the team, the collective, that idea that everybody's in this. If failure occurs, everybody pays a price. So if they all pay a price, why would they not be invested in being part of the solution And so that to me is the the the easiest trap to fall in, particularly for a new company officer. And then this is where it becomes harder in the fire service that the analogy with the military drops off. It's in the military Nine times out of ten, if you get promoted, you get sent somewhere else. It is very uncommon, except for certain environments, to stay in the environment you got promoted in. Because they know that distance is critical for that familiarity, breeds, contempt. They they need that distance for that to the other side of the planet, another place, whatever. in the fire service that You can only go so far. And as we know, tell telegraph, telephone, telefirefighter, everybody knows everybody's business And when they walk in, they're already like, oh, this guy. Yeah, I know all about him.

Mark Davidson: I heard about him. This never worked with them, never seen him on the fire ground, but I already know who that guy is. That that trap And it becomes difficult because then that's a discussion that I get into about a glide path to leadership, and that gets in the discussion of followership. If you were an ineffective follower Right? And you you you were hey shenanigans is what the fire service is all about, right? And you just bought into that and as a troop you're just Constantly doing dumb shit and you're just like, ah, my job is to be the wise ass and to push back and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then one day you wake up and go, I want to be a boss. Well, the foundation you have set, the expectation you have set starts here. And you're gonna have to do a hard right turn into leadership versus a, and it's again Even if you're a good follower, there's no expectation that you're gonna be a great leader, right? It still takes work. But if you give me 10 troops From the one group of not high-functioning followers, and 10 who are really trying hard to be good followers and good firefighters Generally speaking, this is a higher percentage bet, those those effective followers, because the traits of an effective follower are exactly the same as an effective leader. And when you when you look at that, it's two sides of the same coin. So that transition becomes much easier and that understanding of who you are doesn't follow you. And and it's not to say that past performance is always an indicator of future results. You could be somebody who would, you know You made bad decisions as a troop and you're trying to do better. And I've met so many of those guys and gals who it's like they're fighting out of that corner and they get there. But it is a much harder lift because you've got to shed all those all that history.

Corley: Trajectory is trajectory. It's hard to change trajectory mid-flight. Mark Davidson: Yeah. Corley: You know, it can be done. Mark Davidson: Yes, 100%. But you know, the whole prodigal son discussion. You know, you can come back and get right to it and be doing good stuff. But it is harder than if you start early and say, hey, let me just slow, steady path, and I'm going to do the right thing and I'm going to learn. Because eventually you don't plan on it. Nobody, well. Few people should walk into a firehouse on day one and go, I'm gonna be the fire chief of this place. Corley: Right. Mark Davidson: Right? You you just you know, you start where you start. And if you're making good decisions and trying hard, even on the days where you screw up and Trust me, my top 10 list of FFs is spectacular. You know, you you work through those, then you you have that. You have that honesty of like, yeah, I've made mistakes, but I'm trying. And even those days that didn't go well, you're building back out of it. So that when you move into leadership, you're given that grace. When you don't do that, especially in the fire service, because you know we we we'll make decisions real quick. We're wired for that. We'll make those judgments. it it's hard to build out of that. So and and then again now that gets back to effective following, effective leading. Leaders have to teach them. They have to mentor and coach and go, hey, I was where you're at. You may want to reconsider. I mean, I've walked trenches around firehouses like ruts from the Amish country. With firefighters trying to talk them into, hey, think about what you're doing, think about the glide path you're establishing going forward. You may want to reconsider what the way you're going at this stage.

Corley: No, that's beautiful. and if people know my own personal story, I am a person that had to change trajectory because I I always tell people I make a great before and after photo. but I don't know what it is with East Coast people named Mark and their infatuation with followers. But you and Mark alone love followership. Mark Davidson: The man spells his name correctly. Shout out to Mark. Corley: Shout out to Mark. The two marks with a C. no, absolutely love it. let me go back to the questions from the audience here. If there was a few more I wanted to get to. Sure Mmm, let me see. Too long. What is the number one thing? We are missing the fire train. Let me see. We are small, I'm looking, I'm looking. Captain, again, your mom's mom wrote another question to you. This one's from Rick Bergen. Said, Cap, what should the testing and evaluating process for a potential officer look like, in your opinion? So I love this question. Let me just say that because I love promotional processes. Mark Davidson: Yeah, it it it it should measure all those five areas that we talked about. It should measure all five of those areas. it it should be a significant evaluation of their tactical competence. And so for me, it's not just you should be able to run an event, right? You should be able to walk in in a as real world an environment as possible, try and duplicate that in testing. And I've done a ton of different testing and evaluation. It's very difficult. especially when you get into large organizations, but you want to see how that person is going to perform in a as close as possible real-world environment. I saw an organization, smaller department. But they actually set up a house on a street that was cited for destruction. They smoked it up, they made sure they controlled the the environment as much as possible, the candidate had to get in the rig from start. You know, get dressed, get in the rig. Seatbelt, hit the in-route. Everything was set up so it was duplicating that real world environment. They're communicating on the radio. They have to assist in the driver in positioning, making that decision They got to take a lap of the structure. They did all these things. And I was like, wow, that's next level.

Mark Davidson: Because I they are getting an insight into how that person is going to perform under real world condition. Right? So that part, oral board exercises, so that now we can gain an understanding of how much of the tactical doctrine you need to know, how much do you actually retain? And that's where studying reams of paper and you know tons of manuals, while some people are like, oh my God, it's painful. I already know. Well, hey, at O-Dark When pick a situation arises, if you can't scroll through the Rolodex, slide tray, hard drive, cloud drive, whatever generation you want, to get that piece of information. to base your decisions on, then you could potentially get people hurt or killed. We need to know and if the stress of a test environment, there's some people who make that argument, the stress of the test environment is too much and it's not realistic. Well what about the stress on the incident scene? When, you know, things are popping, people are screaming, your crew's looking at you, and you're, you know, in full spin mode. So those two elements and then it gets to those other pieces conflict resolution to to do real-world conflict resolution exercises money because again now I'm getting a sense of how this person deals with people writing exercise I I don't care where you're at. If you are a supervisor, a leader, a formal leader, you've got to be able to write. And if you spell cat with a K. You're probably going to have problems in that ability to communicate, right? Because now you're in front of the homeowners association. And I'm not saying you gotta speak the King's English, but you have to be able to communicate in whether you're in front of the community association, doing a dog and pony, talking with the troops. your your tact, your ability to speak, all those things become important. Those things need to be measured. And everything in between. you know, the agency's policies, the ideas behind effective leadership, understanding the this the theory and the the the science, the art of it, all those things need to be evaluated so you get the full picture. But just saying all that I just said, how many organizations have that ability to do all of that for 20 candidates, five candidates, 100 candidates, whatever it is?

Corley: And not only not only do it, but also repeat it. Mark Davidson: Do it well. Do it well because if you screw it up, you're just, you know, you're one lawyer away from having the whole thing blasted because you do not and I can tell you some some horror stories where organizations I I won't name any. Mike had had some problems. And, you know, at the end of the day, that that destroys trust in the testing process and in and so then you start getting into the smaller world where well it's hard to get these really effective measuring tools that we know are great. So you start shrinking it down to what's objective? Multiple choice written test, you know, you know, just the most basic things. Well now you're not getting a sense of knowledge of their ability, any of those things. It's just it's it's a difficult proposition at best. But those that would be the ideal. Corley: No, I love the ideal. The ideal sounds amazing. It's something it's a gauntlet I'm not sure I'd want to go through. Mark Davidson: A lot of work. Corley: No doubt. Mark Davidson: For leadership, that's just a ton of work, but the investment's worth it.

Corley: I think it sounds phenomenal. And that is that really what keeps us from doing good about or a good promotional process? Is it just the amount of work involved? Is that really all it comes to? Mark Davidson: Because nothing is free. Again, even if it's a two-station fire department, a volunteer fire department, doesn't matter, to have some sort of rigorous, relevant, realistic Testing instrument is very difficult to develop and to your point to rinse, lather, repeat, to do it repeatedly. It takes a lot of shit ton of work. That's metric. A shit ton of work. And on top of that, the required the cost. Not only of delivery, but now you're paying for people's time and it just it is incredibly difficult. But the alternative is you know a hundred question, multiple choice. Yeah, what are you what are you evaluating? Corley: Oh yeah. No, I mean, yeah. If if nothing else, effort in the studying process. That's about all you're that's about that's but that's what you're measuring. And then it comes, yeah. No, there there's a yeah, a lot to be said about yes. Luke Stevenson coming at you from down under. Do you think that the fact that it's hard to turn up to a fire and make it worse? creates an environment where it's hard to identify poor performance.

Mark Davidson: I'm sorry, say say it again. I missed the first part. Corley: The fact that we can show up to a fire and it's hard to make it worse. It's hard to make a you know decision to make it worse. Do you think that that it makes it hard to identify poor performance? well Mark Davidson: Shit. I'll go to we can always make it worse. I was gonna say like it especially ventilation. Yeah. We can we we can Yeah, I I've seen I've done it. You know, hey, I yeah, you you can have people make what appears to be like the worst thing ever, a lot worse than what it is. Yeah, in a sense, especially from the outside, because I always say this and then, you know, sarcasm is my third language. At the end of the day, you know, when when we burn a house down to the foundation, the 11 o'clock news is out there and like, look at those heroes go. They They did it. And they see water spraying. And meanwhile, the first end company took every piece of glass. The line got deployed to the wrong place. The ladders are upside down. It's like the three students fire department. You know, they don't see that. All they see is, hey, those heroes, right? And so we know what effective looks like. And that's where brutally honest, tactful, respectful, but brutally honest tailboards are so vital. Those after actions, when things don't go well, we have to have the ability to have the hard conversation with those members. And again, that's that conversation. It can be the conversation. Hey, let's go for a walk. I don't want to flame you out in front of the whole crew, but woof, we got to talk. I mean, what walk me through what you were thinking. And That is vital because we know what effective looks like and what ineffective looks like. And we can't just go, well, what are you going to do? But again, that goes to now effective leadership. Those leaders have to be able to do those conversations. And it's not just, oh, you suck, figure it out, do better next time. That's the whole coaching and mentoring thing. it it's it and it's vital. And I was like the the whole thing with the the blue angels, if you ever watch the specials and how they end up After actions, you know, it they're brutal.

Mark Davidson: They're like, yeah, you screwed up. None of us know. I mean, because they're like flying six inches off the length of the road. Oh my god, it's awesome. But when they when you see behind the curtain of how they dissect It doesn't matter. That's flat. That again goes to a CRM kind of thing. That's flat. There is no, oh, you're the boss, I'll be respectful. Nope, boss, you screwed up. You did this, you did that. And they take ownership of it and they move on. Corley: But it and why is it because obviously people point to the blue angels all the time. They're not their visualization and preparation is amazing. Yeah, and then and the backside, the critique and evaluation post-performance to keep that level so high. What are we missing to make that happen? Is it just leadership? Does it really just come down to leadership? yeah, it does. Mark Davidson: Yeah, I think it does. It boils down to leadership creating that culture that says we are gonna, we want to be better And that means that sometimes as individuals, we have to pay a price. Corley: Right. Mark Davidson: Up to and including me as as you know the the leader. So if I fail, I I will, and you tell me, I will do exactly what you talked about, taking that ownership. as as hard as it may be to go, yeah, I I had a bad day. And setting that tone and then the expectation, look, this isn't about being disrespectful to somebody or or you know being an asshole. This is about we want to be better. So all of us should be willing to hear when that moment happens. And if if that happens, then it becomes a much different environment. And I've seen this in in A a lot a a lot of organizations, both Big Green Gun Club and and on the blue side to to say red side to say, hey, look, you know, it's we want better. And when that, when you feel that in those environments, it it you can feel how people are willing to push. And they're willing to go to the boss and say, I I you didn't give me what I needed. And that boss goes, yeah, that's fair. What do we need to do to make it better? That's good stuff. That's hard to get there.

Mark Davidson: It's that chicken before the egg thing. Who's who starts it? Well, everything to me starts with the leader. We I will always hold Particularly company officers, very responsible for what happens in their firehouse. Corley: Right. Mark Davidson: And I'm going to segue real quick and then I'll shut up because at the end of it, I I honestly don't give a He rhymes with Duck about what's happening in the Chief Suite. That's not impacting what's happening in my firehouse. That's not impacting what's happening. Now I get, you know, they buy the rigs And they, you know, the this the AC isn't working. Yeah, there's certain things that operate at that level, but if we're talking about the culture in that shift, in that firehouse, that's the company officer's responsibility. So them setting the tone is this extension of this discussion, they are responsible for that. And if they're sitting there saying, well, things suck because the fire chief didn't do this or didn't do that, they're missing the point. Ridiculously, they're missing the point. The fire chief is not on the floor. They're not in the firehouse. They may pass through, but they are not the ones setting the tone for that group. That's the company officer. And that to me is why the investment is so important.

Corley: No, I love it. I love it, man. I wanted to get to I like the I like these little wrap-up questions coming at you from the audience. And this one is a it's it's it's an oldie but a goodie. Mark Marcus Roos wants to know, what's your advice for day one as a new company officer? One piece of advice, day one. Mark Davidson: Yeah. Have a open, honest conversation and start with Don't flip the table and say there's an UF and sheriff in town and this is where the rubber meets the road and where the bear shits in the woods. No. But it starts with that first conversation about, hey, this is who I am. This is how I feel things should be done in that discussion with them saying this is a team. There's no chance for success unless it's all of us. Because last time I checked, I can't Get in the rig, drive, hit the en route button, look it up on the map, drive, jump out, wrap the hydrant, pull forward, establish the water supply, pull the line, force the door, take a lap. You know, I'm exhausted back on step one. I I need everybody to be putting in to make this thing work. And know that if you have something that you want to talk about with me, we're going to have that conversation. If there's something you need and I'm not getting it to you, we're going to fix it. The things that we can control, we control in the firehouse. Not again on the sixth floor of wherever headquarters is. It's what we control here. And to me, just having that honest discussion about what this is what I want for us to succeed, it it starts it it starts the snowball, it starts a chain reaction when you're referring to the group to the team. team. It's a this is about us. And I I think that's a a good way to start out the conversation. And then you just take it from there.

Corley: Beautiful. I love that, man. all right. Man, so much. I want to go to virtual fire ground walk and LODD investigations, the virtual side. Mark Davidson: Yeah, yeah. Corley: Oh you use military-inspired approach kinda to build this kind of thing. Talk to me about the lessons learned from it and the value of it. Mark Davidson: Yeah, well for sure I can't take any credit for this in the Fire service. Now the the the fire battleground walks, battlefield walks, are are something the military's been doing for m goes back the history on that goes back to the Prussians Speaking speaking of the military, I think there's a sixty over my house right now. it goes back to the present. The fire service The Wildland side had started doing this, I believe it was it goes back to the 80s, where they started going after these events, like typically line of duty. where they would go on the actual ground to then walk around and just and show the candidates, the trainees, the topography, the conditions, to put them in that place. And it's incredibly valuable. incredibly valuable because now those leaders that are being taught can picture those conditions and the next time they're on that quote unquote battleground that's similar to that they can make good decisions. The problem with the structural side is generally when we have those line of duty deaths, the structure is gone It's either burned to the ground or demolished or whatever. It is very rare to have a line of duty death on the structural side where that structure is still there. Right, that's the third part. Plus, there's not a a model that allows that to really be to happen The NFLF is the one that bears all the credit for starting the down this path on the virtual side with actual fire ground walks. The NFLF in conjunction with Asheville As a result of Captain Bowen's line of duty death there, I encourage everybody to read those reports and understand that event to so much learning. That department. opened up its doors to conduct an actual fire ground walk. That structure where where where Captain Bowen died is still there. So that department in conjunction with the NFL F got together. They got with the building management and they just did the second one a month or two ago. And they actually toured the building and the members, this is the most powerful part, the members that were actually there guided that tour and that discussion, the timeline of the events that led to Captain Bowen's death.

Mark Davidson: And the amount of learning that I got out of it was in cr just next level. So what I did having that opportunity to do the first one is I took a crap ton of pictures, I took the report, and then I wanted to somehow transfer that same knowledge But I can't take everybody to Asheville. Great time, by the way. I mean, if you can get to Asheville, especially post the storm to help rebuild that economy. We can't. It's very difficult in coordination, but we can do it virtually. So what we did is we had that same mentality of walking the members through the building, setting the conditions. This is what occurred. Here's the timeline. And then at different timelines, I would stop and say, okay, at this point, after arrival on scene. What what would you do? What is your decision making? And so we ping the members that are there. And then we compare it to what actually occurred on the incident scene. And so doing that in conjunction with the pictures, the history, and walking them through the entire event gives them an opportunity to learn from real-world battlefield conditions to hopefully inform their decision-making ability, their tactics, their ability to to make tactical decisions in those moments. And I think it's a cool way to go because again Those structures aren't there, but if we can duplicate that, especially people are more technically savvy, Sam, than than than me, because I just did it with PowerPoint. It's it's essentially the same as a box of 64 Crayola crayons. But there's people that can do the the virtual and all sorts of I think there's more for us to do in this space to to replicate those things so that we can learn from them.

Corley: Nice, nice. No, that's amazing. no, absolutely. and especially with the way technology is No, like it's it's it's mind blowing what it can do. And I know the the older I get the more mind blowing it becomes like magic Mark Davidson: Yeah, yeah. And then a quick shout out for the NEEF. If if anybody is interested in being an advocate, please reach out to the to the foundation. Remember, there's two sides of that house. the side of the house that takes care of the family members in that worst moment after the event. And the other side of the house is how do we prevent that worst moment from happening? And there's a couple folks in that group, FCRE, everyone goes home, Frank Chief Lieb, you know, all these folks doing a lot of good stuff. So if you're willing to to pitch in and help out. What I generally tell everybody is I can guarantee you your paycheck will never get cut. Corley: All right. And he is military. You can tell because he keeps throwing acronyms. National Fallen Firefighters Foundation. Mark Davidson: Yes. Corley: Just so everybody, and then I I I wouldn't even begin to to Mark Davidson: guess at some of the not guess but try to hit all the oh yeah yeah I'm sorry they're yeah anyways just hit the website for National Fallen Fallen Firefighters Foundation if you're interested in helping out

Corley: Right on. All right. Book or books. Last time you were here, you gave me one of my favorite books of all time. So no pressure. Mark Davidson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this time I can't prepare because last time I was just shooting from the hip, even though you told me. So the first one is honestly, I try and focus on small unit leadership and narratives that talk about that. And this book is not that. It's Team of Rivals by Dor Doris Kerwin, Doris Kern Goodwin, who's a historian. It's about Abe Lincoln. And it is very much a story about him as a strategic level leader building a team that helps guide him through the Civil War. And I had no idea. A the history of it, but how much it it mirrors what you should be doing as a small unit leader when you talk about team building. And it literally talks about the fact that some of the people on his team didn't like him. They ran against him They were one of them was genuinely pissed at the idea that he gets elected president and that he didn't, the guy. Right? And so, but Lincoln says, I don't care. Like him, but he brings into the team, where essentially at one point he says, I would hold the man's horse as long as he helps me essentially win the get the mission accomplished. And that kind of leadership at a small unit level is critical because we are not always going to like the people that work with us We we won't. You don't get to pick the A plus team and your best friends to be on your crew. You end up with a group of firefighters and you need to build that team, create team cohesiveness, all those things. You got what you got. The quote we can apply here is you go to war with the army you got. That's Rumsol from First Golf. And That's what that's the way it goes. And so this book, even though by first blush, it's about being a president, you're like, how does that apply to small? I guarantee you read that and you're like, oh. That's how you build a team in spite of the fact that they may not like you, they may not necessarily respect you to start out with, but you know all you know is you have to accomplish a mission.

Mark Davidson: And that's what that book is about. So that's the first one. second one is leadership in dangerous situations. they're on their second edition. I it's like it's basically a compendium. It's a it's a bunch of different authors, so I I don't even remember the names of the primaries, but they went out and got a bunch of folks from military, fire service, public safety environments and talked about what that leadership looks like in in extremist environments and i think it's just a great read i i happen to know one of of the writers in there so just good stuff it applies directly to our environment because Dangerous situations, right? The next two are specifically fire service folks, and it's it's a little bit of a shout-out, but also that they're good books. strategy and tactics for employee fires, Jesse Quinalti. Corley: Yeah, Quinalti. Mark Davidson: Yeah. because again, it's he he's a fire service guy writing about how you deal with this leadership environment. And so to me It just transfers right. It's easy as opposed to what we talked about with D'Andrew Malone, where he's talking about leadership in Vietnam. Right. And and Jesse's a great guy. the other one, brand new book, The First Things First, Helton Pereira just wrote it. He is looking at the idea that leadership in the fire service isn't just about leading, it's about taking leadership of self, is really what that book boils down to. And to be clear, there there's very much a religious aspect to it, which you know I wholeheartedly endorse. I'm not a hugely religious guy by myself, but the idea of leadership of self and how to navigate that in the fire service. it is a very unique perspective. you know, it's that idea, it's not for everybody because it does get into very deep into the the personal aspects of his life. But if you're I would say that if you're willing to just throw it wide open and say, how how do I leave myself first to then become the leader in the fire service? And it's just and written from that firefighter's perspective, and it deals with just real Real issues, just real stuff that people go through. So I I think it's a a great read and something that for that a lot of people I think will get something out of

Corley: And Helton is a huge Redskin fan, so I have massive respect for him. Mark Davidson: So yeah, those are th that that's that's what I got. I could go like 20 more, but it would just Corley: get old and boring but those are the the four that i would shout out thank you thank no awesome i love i look it's one of my favorite questions i ask i'm always look i'm gonna order i have Mark Davidson: I'm gonna order I have all the others I'm gonna order the dangerous situations I don't have them second edition the the first edition is interesting but second edition I think is really picking up where it took left off. Corley: I'm gonna make sure I put an asterisk by and say second edition. Perfect. So we have a thing we do here. It's called the Five Questions for Firefighters. I'm not sure it was around the first time you were here. Mark Davidson: No, no. Corley: Okay, so this is their first exposure. This is actually the fourth installment but the current questions there are no right answers there are only your opinions okay and then we assign points actually i assign points completely arbitrarily based on your answer with the help of the audience. So the first question to ask is Mark Davidson, are you ready for your first crack? At the five questions for firefighters.

Mark Davidson: Get it. I'm here. I'm ready. Corley: Number one. Number one. You are the proby once more. And you have to cook the firehouse meal. What is your go-to meal? Mark Davidson: So I'm taking this in the framework of special meal, you know, not you know whether it's somebody's birthday. or we had a really good job or whatever it's got it's a special meal as opposed to kind of the normal because normally I would try and cook healthy right okay okay but for a because you know healthy is important you know cardiac deaths all that stuff and anybody I I cooked a lot through my entire fire service career and generally it was it was healthy but if we're talking a special meal Then it is my first truck driver was a master technician. The driver of my first truck company was a guy by the name of John Yadlowski. Yaddy. And his signature dish was Faruccini. Not Fettuccini, Farruccini. Because he would use Sticks of butter, whole cream, bacon. if that stuff got cold, like if we got hit out and that got cold, it was just it would coagulate. So it's a important And with grilled shrimp. So if you can imagine a what a perfectly al dente fettuccine with whole cream, butter, lots of parmesan, mozzarella. crushed real bacon cooked up nice and crispy crushed up in there and then grilled shrimp all tossed in there Oh. Okay. Just just money.

Corley: Just money. Now I can feel my arteries like just a lot of things. Oh no, 100%. Mark Davidson: Speaking of coagulating, but it will absolutely contribute to the next cardiac event Corley: I can feel myself growing as as you speak, but it sounds delicious. Oh, it's Fattaccini sounds amazing. Max points out the gate, number one, Fattaccini Number two, it's job town. It's time. Mark Davidson: Yeah. Corley: You are in route and responding. You got to think of the scene from backdraft where he's slapping that cassette tape in that deck. Yeah. What song are you playing while you're in route? And keep in mind, whatever song you pick, it goes on the Spotify playlist. There's a Spotify playlist out there with all the answers together. It's a really eclectic list But go ahead, what is your answer? Mark Davidson: 100% Stevie Ray Von Voodoo Child Voodoo Child. Covering Jimi Hendrix. And I'd like Jimi Hendrix's version, but Stevie Ray Von, particularly the live version, not the studio version. I believe it's in Montreal. Just ridiculous. Like when I'm in the gym by myself, I'll just the walls will be vibrating. I'll have that thing. Because if I'm dragging, that's I just crank that up Now with that, if that's not available on the playlist, then flight of the Valkyries. And that that that's a nod. That's a nod to Recard Wagner? Yeah, that's a that's a nod to to the to the military movie which yeah So it's it's not a polite thing. Apocalypse, apocalypse now. Apocalypse now, death, dying, you know, it's not it's not a comfortable thing that, you know But that in the background, you gets gets the blood boiling, like, okay, somebody hit somebody. You're going through the tunnel. This is what we play for. So, but Stevie Ray Vaughn first.

Corley: Okay. No, you got max points. Of course, Sam's immediately all you had to say was Stevie, Ray, and and boom, you get max points from Sam. Mark Davidson: I like it. I like it Corley: Max points, no doubt about it. And you're getting max points from the audience, no doubt about it. All right. And we'll we will get that added to the playlist, hopefully. Number three, whose boots, past, present, or future Would you like to spend 24 hours in? Mark Davidson: So again we we chatted a little bit. Without a doubt, Richard went. For anybody in the room, Banda Brothers, the central character of that of that series and essentially of the book is what I consider to be the ultimate leader. in especially in that small unit environment. obviously having to suffer through the things he had to suffer through, nobody would want to do that. But just to get into his head as him as a leader to to display all the things he did. And you know, I have a whole thing about I I dump on the generational argument all the time because people are like, oh You know, big now everybody wants a hug and it's it's a crap argument. It's like horoscopes. But when you look at the environment he was in, Nobody could argue, member of the greatest generation, ultimate leader, combat World War II. And yet one of his one of his subordinates, one of his troops, is quoted as saying very specifically, as a leader, he knew our wants, our needs. and our desires. And that's what made him an effective leader. Not not the the tactics and the and the bravery, all that stuff was baked in. But that quote when I heard that was just struck me to the core Because if you say that as a in for quote unquote millennial or Gen X or whatever the fuck all that dumb shit is, like, oh, they need a hug, they need this. No, this is the greatest generation. This is This guy knew that, that he had to display empathy. He had to care for his troops. He he truly did love the people that served him and he wanted what was best for him. He wanted them to survive. And he was going to do everything he could to make that happen. And to me, that was just so powerful.

Mark Davidson: And to just understand how he achieved that, I would do it in a second. Corley: No, it's about yeah, I love that answer. I love that answer. max points easy max points dick winter's one of my i i will I use him in so many of my classes he's in my book no doubt about it you are retired. Number four. Max points three for three, by the way. But you are retired. You're sitting on the beach, enjoying a Mai Tai or your cocktail of choice. You want, what do you want to hear through the grapevine? That the people you used to work with, how do they describe you to the new hires? Mark Davidson: Yeah, given that I'm eight months out. yeah, no, it's so I think I that this one took me a second. I think it goes back to what I my definition of leadership, he made things better. And And whenever I was tired, he just said, go to sleep, or oh, you don't want to train today? Oh, well, shoot, take it easy. You know, let's let's not train because you're you're just, you know, whatever. It to me is is what the whole thing is about. You know, so making things better is there are days where, you know, somebody needs a kick in the ass to get them off the couch because we got to go out and train Making things better is somebody's having a really shitty day at home and you know you call them off duty. Making it better is the organization isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing and you make the push to get the organization to do what it should be doing So, and sometimes successful, sometimes not. So to me, that would be that would be it. That if for you know, whether that individual who's talking about me or a group of people say, yeah, he he made things better. and that that's my that I'd love to hear that.

Corley: Dude, that's a pretty good answer. I love and this is what I love about the five questions, it is the answer really doesn't matter. It's the reason you chose the answer, and that's what really makes it matter. And just from from from Stevie Ravon's live version, rattling the the walls in the gym, yeah, the Faticini. to the description of Dick Winners. That's what I love. That's what I live for in those answers. So max points four for four. Final question. Heavy fire. Searchable space Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES? Mark Davidson: Not even. As soon as I saw that, I was like, dude, there's not even a second of hesitation. Okay, I'm about to say something that's gonna piss off at least half the room. Okay. Anybody can squirt water. It takes a chess player to go into a building without the benefit of the handline and get the job done. So VES hashtag truck work truck life all day long. I always say this. I was a mediocre engine officer at best. But I love truck work. So ladders in the in the in the building, you know, make good decisions because if you screw this up, it's not going to go well. And having to to that chess game of of figuring things out, where am I at? Where's this going to be in the next couple minutes? 100% VES.

Corley: I love it. I got to get my timestamp here because I think I know what I'm going to lead the show with. Let me circle that. And that makes it five for five, Max. Well, we got two hashtags on that answer. We got two hashtags. And that officially makes it 304 scraps in the books with a five for five max points for Mark Davidson. My brother, if people want to get a hold of you, what's the best way to do so? Mark Davidson: email me mfpf. davidson at gmail. I I I get it it's it is crazy how many people still hit me up from the first time we talked And hey, we got a question about officer development. I I will teams them, we'll talk strategy, things to look at, you know, how we developed our program, you know, it's where it is now. But bottom line is, you know, that the evolution of what we did with zero resources to start out. And yeah, I'll share. There's everything I do, like when I teach, I give away the PowerPoint. If you want the PowerPoint, it's yours. References, slide deck, the whole thing it's PDF just because of the the size of the but use the slides, reinterpret them however you want, open source. There's nothing that's a secret. So nobody wants to talk officer development or Small unit leadership or whatever, always up for a combo.

Corley: All right. Two things left that I always do. This is new stuff, but basically I asked you to give a challenge to the audience that listens to the scrap, a challenge for them to complete before the next scrap comes out next Tuesday. So Mark Davidson, what is your challenge to the audience? Mark Davidson: read about crew resource management. Understand what crew resource management is. Because to me, if you can employ that as a small unit leader, you're well on your way to building an effective team and well on your way to making good decisions on the incidencing because none of us is perfect. Again, top 10 list of screw-ups. Epic. and so to have a voice on your crew say, hey Lou, hey Cap, hey dumbass, did you think about this? Invaluable. Invaluable. Because though that's what balances things out and gets you to effective decision making is by having more eyes on the problem instead of, oh, I'm the only one that makes decisions. I am the captain of the ship. I am the captain. I am the captain of that. Look at me. Look at me, I am the gap in there. Just a horrible way to lead. So yeah, I would say learn as much as you can about career resource management by Tuesday

Corley: Next Tuesday. You got one week. You got one week to learn and become a master of crew resource management. There you go. CRM. Now the other question I ask is somebody that you think should be on the scrap. Now I always caveat this by saying there's been 304 episodes And that's a lot of guests, so over 275 guests, I want to say. So it's I know you can't know everybody that's been on there, but someone you think should be on or back on. Mark Davidson: Yeah, a lot a lot of my heroes and icons Corley: have been on so i think i'm pretty sure Doug Mitchell you had I need I need to have Mitchell on I've had his I've had his partner in crime but I need to have I need I need to Mark Davidson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, see, I yeah, for sure. and then I I I hope I don't piss anybody off because I oh you didn't say me or whatever, but a guy that I'm just a huge fan of is Nick Baskerville Prince William County. He's he's heavily involved in the NEEF. He does a whole thing about storytelling as as a mechanism by which to to help be an effective leader. No, I'm super injuries. Yeah, yeah. No, he's Super sharp guy. I'd love to hear him have this same conversation.

Corley: Give me both, because I this is what I had this conversation yesterday with the vigilantes. Is me and Sam do a lot of work every week to make sure we stay on schedule and get the get them out. And it's not an ex-there's that's not an excuse, but it it it's a ball of chaos, is what it is. And if I don't book somebody when they pop into my head, Then boom, they're in the nether. And until until they pop back into the forefront, they're gone. And and and it's just a chaos that that is scrap. Mark Davidson: So but I mean with the the people you've had on this and the conversations you've had, it's just this is this is the important stuff because there's the ripples in the pond from this that people are listening that pick up a nugget here, pick up a nugget there you know, from from three hundred and four different people and and just invaluable. Corley: So I I appreciate Mark Davidson: I hope I'm not pissing anybody off who's like, why didn't you mention me? I'm I'm just from the clip on it. Corley: Yeah, welcome to my world. Because I forget. I forget. I'm like, oh damn it. I meant to. I meant to, I swear to God. so no, absolutely. Okay, housekeeping. Thank you for that. And give me both of those contacts. I think I have ducks, but I'm not sure on the other portion because I'm I need to have one and the other one you have me in treat.

Mark Davidson: Of course I gotta I gotta tell him because he'll be like, what the hell did you do? Corley: I'm sorry. Just tell him he needs to do it. Mark said so. He blames me for a lot of the shit I drag him into. All right, patreon. com slash the vigilantes. If you are not a vigilante, why not? It is the cool kids club. You are never alone. You are with like-minded souls. If you want to connect with people who are in the never-ending fight against complacency Go become a vigilante. We have the Discord where we hang out daily. Someone is always in there going live, sharing stuff, having discussions. It it It's hard to describe unless you're a part of it. We're doing meetups whenever whenever vigilantes get together at conferences, we do the meetups. It's exciting. we're gonna have a big one coming up at Firemanship in July. but it's awesome. And the biggest part about the vigilantes is the after party where we go and we roast the guest when the scrap is over. Mark Davidson has agreed to come in and be roasted. So he will be joining us for the after party and Sam will be posting that link shortly. So we'll see you in there. But enough of that. Coming up on the scrap next week, it is episode 305. And 305 is the area code of Miami, which means it is Rob Ramirez back. Rob! My don't say it, you're gonna beat me to it. Mi romano por otro madre. So That is coming up. I'm excited, man. I love Robert Muir. If you know me, I love Robert Muir. It's followed by the one and only Mike Bernard. And that is going to be exciting i've i've got to know him through the book of search and his article he contributed and it's going to be exciting to dig into that 2025 is trucking along in style so make sure and stay tuned Mark your calendars every Tuesday night. I can say it now. Every Tuesday night, the scrap is going live. You don't have to ever ask when's the next scrap? It's next Tuesday. So Enough jabbering. Let's get to the after party. Thank you. Once again, Mark Davidson, for coming and spending your Tuesday evening with us and sharing your passion.

Mark Davidson: Thank you very much. I can't say enough. Just love doing this and I appreciate that you even were like, ah, let's give it a let's talk with this knucklehead Corley: So I appreciate I like hashtag truck work. audience, you know I love you. Every week you show up and you make the scrap magical by asking killer questions that that that You set me and the guests up for success each and every week, and I can't thank you enough for that. You are what makes the scrap magical. So thank you for tuning in live. I love you all. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tones stay silent. Speaker 4: This job will never be safe. So stay smart out there