Weekly Scrap #348 - Kris Blume, The Crucible of Leadership

Corley: Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance. It is weekly scrap number 348. My guest tonight is the one and only Kris Blume. He is the fire chief of the Meridian, Idaho, Fire Department, and has been more than 27 years of fire service experience. 21 years of those with Tucson, Arizona Fire Department. He is an author with numerous articles and also published with fire engineering book Carry the Fire. Blume is a graduate of the Executive Fire Officer Program. He's an instructor at the National Fire Academy, forever a student of the fire service. He has focused on values-driven, mission-focused leadership for the profession. And I'm very excited about the topics we are gonna we're gonna attempt to cover this evening. So I'm excited for this episode. Welcome, my brother, Kris Blume, episode number 348. All right. Kris Blume: Well, thank you, Corley, and thank you, Sam, in the background. I appreciate it. What an honor and privilege. This is the play. This is the Joe Rogan. Of the fire service, so I'm honored. Corley: That's that's one of the coolest things I think a guest has ever said. You just got max points right out the gate. Well, I don't know. I mean yeah Is there anything I missed? We worked hard on making sure he'd say that right after, but no, is there anything you want to add to the intro? Anything I left out?

Kris Blume: No, I it that was very gracious of you, Corley. I think yeah, you hit hit the high points for sure. Corley: Audience, get your questions ready for Chris and myself. This is going to be a fun discussion. And I promise you, the topics we're covering, you're going to have stuff to throw at us So let's do the sponsors. Kris Blume: Light me up. Light me up. Corley: Light him up. Yes, 100%. Kris Blume: Oh man. Corley: I always send out an email to the guest saying, Hey, I want to ask intelligent questions. So tell me what you want to talk about. Tell me what's in your wheelhouse. And dude, Chris, you sent a Like very deep. I love it. I I tell people all the time, don't say I'm an open book. Don't send me back ask me anything. That's worthless to me as a host. And you sent a beautiful list of like I think there was 10 topics and each topic had like four distinct questions under it. So I'm like I said, man. It's phenomenal. No, I want to I fully believe this is you always Compliment the behavior you want to see repeated, right? So it's it's I'm selfishly telling you good job so that anybody in the future will will imitate But 100% man, one of the ones that stuck out to me is the cost of silence. So I'm that's where I want to kick it off. I want to kick it right off with the cost of silence because I think Between that and destructive leadership, it was like, oh, what do I want to talk about? And let's let's kick it off at the cost of silence. And what do you mean when you talk about silence in leadership has a cost?

Kris Blume: Wow, right, right out of the gates, man. Well, you know, it's it's interesting because uh for a for a guy who never sought out To be a fire chief. And, you know, uh, quite frankly, the brass ring for me was to be a training captain, to have a red helmet in the uh Tucson Fire Department and the training division. That was the highest aspiration I had for the for the fire service. But as I as I moved beyond that, one of the things that I I really started to uh figure out is that leadership requires communication, it requires conversations and silence oftentimes in specifically in leadership roles, once you whether it's the company officer, the battalion chief, or certainly in the fire chief's office You know, silence is often framed or or viewed as neutrality. And it's not. And that that neutrality, that silence has consequences. And you know, we we know this. I mean, I I again a fireman at heart, I you know, I've sat around the coffee table, the treason table, sipping sipping coffee with the crew, and in the absence of communications, in that vacuum of silence people are gonna fill in the gaps. And you know th that that reality is usually filled in with with uh a reality that's that's much worse than than than than well it's a reality that's much worse than reality. And so, you know, it it it lin lends itself to this idea of rumors and assumptions and and conspiracy theories and rumors. Oh, dude We're the greatest at conspiracy theories. And I'd be the first person to sit here and be the most disingenuous a-hole to tell you that I didn't participate. Like I know the games, man. Like I played them. I was part of them. I've been disciplined for him. Like I was the guy. Like I fed into and believed in sort of those things. And so As as I've grown in my role in leadership, what I've figured out is that it authentically takes courage to communicate, you know. You know, Corley, I know you're gonna ask me about books. And I know you're a nerd like that. So I'm gonna give you one. I'm sure you've already read it, but You know, uh Brene Brown in Courage to Lead, she she has a you know a very, very brief, very succinct statement that says, clear is kind.

Kris Blume: And I think that when we as leaders, whether it's to our company off as a company officer to our crews or as a battalion to our battalion, when when we're clear with those communications, You know, especially when the difficult the message is difficult for our people, that is a manifestation of good leadership And it certainly is not easy. And it's difficult. And it's so easy just to hide in the captain's office or shut the battalion chief's door or in fact sit around that coffee table and say, yeah. They got it all wrong up there in admin or this, that, and the other. And so I think that as it when we talk about the silence of leadership, it really requires a uh a focused effort on behalf of again company officers, battalion, the fire chief, um because that clarity in the communication and in the absence of silence are going to fill in the void. And and when you are clear in your communications, that's one of the greatest gifts you can give to your people. It's not going to be easy for them to hear, and certainly not easy for you to deliver often, but it's the most compassionate. And responsible thing that you can do as a leader.

Corley: So let me let me dig in because I love this. Uh the cost of silence. And it does it just stem from a lack of intentionality? of of saying I am going to to I'm not going to allow silence to exist, so therefore I'm going to say something. And then springboarding from that Is it become the default to just say, well, I don't have a clear vision or a clear mission? I'm not I'm not clearly connected enough to be intentional, so therefore I'm just gonna keep quiet. Kris Blume: Does that make sense? No, no, no, no, totally. And I and I think that this is you you just hit the nail on the head, right? So whether it's the company officer, and I and I I I can almost just say leadership. So I'll stop saying officer of a time. um seek clarification and you know it's funny I had a wonder I've I've had several wonderful leaders and and a an assistant fire chief that I worked for Mike McKendrick You know, I came into his office and you know I had a bone to pick and I had all these things and and he he stopped me and he said and he used the Stephen Covey quote there's our second book reference and he said seek first to understand Before being understood. And I, you know, at the time as a company officer, I was just like, what the heck does that guy mean? I've got I've got grievances. I've got issues that have to get resolved. But I think that what happens is that if you can remove yourself from the emotional piece of it and you can reconcile with yourself, hey, look, this is a decision that has to be made. It's been made in good faith. It makes sense. It's reasonable. You don't have to agree with it. What you have to do is understand it. And it's the leader's responsibility to make sure that you understand it. And then you have the obligation as a mission-driven profession that we are to go out and then be a acolyte of that of that vision and and share it with your crews. There's, you know, one of the things that I I've I I've struggled with, and I struggled with it as a battalion chief When I was a battalion chief, is this idea of fence straddling, right?

Kris Blume: It's a brilliant statement. It's so easy for people to recognize, right? You got one foot in the field and one in foot in admin. The reality is you're a field administrator. You are taking what the administration says this is what must happen and you deliver it to the field. You do not have a seat at the table anymore You are a field administrator. And so that's my opinion. And that's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow because they always want to be a part of the guys and the gals, you know, at the fire state. You're not anymore. And and and that's sort of one of those things. So I I would say to answer your question very long-windedly, it does require that intentionality. Like you have to be committed to the mission. And if you're not, I don't want to say that the position is not for you. You have to have those very difficult conversations behind a closed door with your superior and say, look, I don't, I'm not in, I'm not on, I'm not on board. But at the end of that conversation, you're gonna have to get on board or you need to find a different position within the agency, right? Because ultimately You have there has to be discipline within an organization. We're not talking about written reprimands and verbal counselings and suspensions. We're talking about discipline And as a leader, the discipline is incumbent upon you to exhibit that discipline. Corley, I know this is going to hit with you. I know it's going to hit with you. I've sat through your nine L's of leadership class. Band of brothers. Right? I mean, this is the epitome. And if the fire service, we call ourselves a paramilitary organization If we could only be that, if we could only be more like that, where the leaders execute the mission. They love their men, but they execute the mission. And you know, yeah, uh uh Randy Royal, fire chief in uh Colorado Springs, wonderful human being. He's got this mantra roar, great article, you know, mission first people always. Man, if you just walked into every meeting with that on the top of your of your of your notepad, mission first, people always, you're gonna get it right.

Corley: No, I love it. I love it. But it is, it is predicated on the on the fact that the leadership is does have a clear mission that they're brought into or vision and they are They are operat. So my question to you, Chris, is, and I know where you probably know where I'm going, is when you are that middle management, when you are that field leader with your foot on each side and the people above you are making decisions that that are not mission driven, are not, there is no clear vision, it's not being communicated. They are staying silent. And you are in a position of How do you how do you carry forward when there is no clear directive that's that's to get like this is the one that I struggled with. That's the reason I bring it up. Kris Blume: I was gonna break. No, Coral, Coral, you you you you just crushed it. Um you know you know what I where that so Man, there's a lot of directions I can go with that one. Sure. But I but I'll I'll say it this way. Leadership owes it to the membership, the men and women carrying out the mission. to be in tune. Now, that doesn't mean that the fire chief goes to the firehouse and has coffee and spaghetti dinners with people. But you have to be in tune with what is going on with the agency. And beyond that, and probably on a much deeper level, you have to be intrinsically linked with those agencies people you have to know what their fears are what their you know their struggles are what the challenges are you just stop looking at just the data go out and have some conversations with some people And understand, you know, in a in a non, you know, they're not going to see their comments ref reflected in a in a memo or a policy that gets placed out, put, put out to the agency. but is a genuine interest in in who they are and what they're doing as a mission. In most agencies, and again, I don't want to apply blanket statements, but In most agencies, the fire chief has been a firefighter, has been a fireman, has has moved up through the ranks, whether it's in that agency or another agency, so they know the plight of the fireman.

Kris Blume: They know what the a at a level, right? When they they experience that they know at a level. And I think that it's really incor important and incumbent upon a fire chief or somebody who aspires to be that position is to not lose the perspective of the common man, of the men and women that are on Mrs. Jones' doorstep, that are doing blood pressure checks at 2. 30 in the morning. They're stretching lines down a a a a a you know a black hallway at three o'clock in the morning with an air conditioning unit falling it, not to lose that perspective. And you know something, Corley, I'm gonna I'm gonna get on a little bit of a soapbox and I probably not too many fire chiefs should listen to this so I feel a little safe here maybe I don't know probably shouldn't but it it the the the thing that grinds my gears more than anything is seeing a fat fire chief Sorry. Like you are not upholding the mission. People can't relate to you. You are not upholding your commitment to the craft. And certainly if I'm a person sitting in the C1 fire chief spot, I sure as hell better be able to do this the job that I'm asking the men and women that are that are going to go out and do it. And if I can't do that, and the day that I can't do that, I will happily see my behind to the door. And I think that this all ends as I'm trying to answer your question. Not you know tangentially, but trying to get to it. The fire chief has to have credibility in their role. And you lose that credibility when you when you have lots lost touch. And one of the first Visual affirmations of losing touch is becoming some dude who can't push yourself away from the desk and walk up a flight of stairs. Shame on you. Shame on you for letting our men and women down.

Corley: Wow. No. Sorry. No. You're probably pretty popular at Chiefs conventions. Kris Blume: No, I'm not. And that's okay. Because I'm not one of them. I'm one of I'm a fireman, and I'll always be a fireman too. Yeah, my my the the the person that I currently report to has told me and I don't know that I never saw it as a as a as a uh insult, he said, you're too much of a fireman. Right. I said Oh, oh, I'm supposed to take that as an insult. Oh, okay. Corley: All my favorite. I told you before we went live, there's not a lot of Fire Chiefs that have been on 350 episodes. There's only a uh I think there's less than 10 out of all 350 episodes. So you're in pretty easy. Kris Blume: I'm 348, baby. Corley: I'm I you're you're correct. I'm rounding up. Uh but The uh but out of almost 350 episodes, there's only I I I would have to go through, but like Thompson and Riley and Kelly I don't I can't even because I I Eddie Robinson's here. Uh Kris Blume. But but it's it's a very rare but it's the mindset of the reason they're on the scrap is because they have that same type of mind. That's not a typical Chiefs mindset, is what I'm saying.

Kris Blume: I and yeah, and it's yeah I I understand. Trust me. I struggle with it. I mean it and to the those fire chiefs out there that aren't falling in line with what I'm saying. Trust me, I would be disingenuous and a phony if I told you that I don't struggle with this daily. Because it is a there is a dichotomy, there is a there are the The you know, I talked about fence straddling and certainly there are, you know, I am an agent of the city that I work for, and I support the mission of the city that I work for 100% without, but I also have to consider the men and women that I have taken responsibility of sending into harm's way. Corley: Well even you and it this is just taking like you said, we we were talking about battalion chiefs. You know, they do they have one foot in the line, one foot in the admin side. And really, like you said, they are a field officer. But even you, you have your stakeholders above you that you have to answer to. And at the end of the day, you have to do, you have to implement the decisions that they send down the pipe. And that's just a tough I'm not saying for you. I'm saying for anybody in a leadership position, you have people you're responsible for and people you answer to. And and it is the the the tension, the push-pull, the dichotomy of keeping credibility with those below you by understanding where they're coming from while also maintaining the ability and the relationships to influence up so that Well, I mean obviously it's easier if you have people above you who are bought in and have a clear mission and all of that. But when you don't, uh man, it's just a tough I wish I could formulate a question there to throw at you, but it's just it's really just kind of Welcome to my brain as I listen to you talk.

Kris Blume: Well, uh so so what I would tell you to anybody aspiring to the the the the position of the fire chief's role or somebody in a senior senior administrative leadership role is it is your job and it's your responsibility to be the vehicle that communicates to the elected officials and to the elected body, what the needs of the fire the fire department are. And you know, oftentimes I've experienced in in in the role that I'm currently in, where I'm currently at You know, we have people who are very interested in uh quantitative research. They want to see the numbers They want to see the graphs, they want to see the charts, they want to know what response times are. And then I have people that are very interested in the qualitative part of that. They want to know the lived experience, like what is actually going on. And so what I've tried to figure out is where that overlap is. to where as a fire chief I can deliver a message that gives you numbers and numeric value to things while also still telling the story of the fire department. And and again, I'm not successful at 100% of my endeavors. But I'm getting better at it. Right. And the the benefit, what I have to recognize is this comes at a cost to me. And I'm okay with that. Because at the end of the day, when the men and women of the of the Meridian Fire Department are served well, they serve the community even better. And so that's that's the trade-off. Like that this is not about me. And you know, um interestingly enough, you know, it it it it like I said and and Corley, I don't know you know i i was i'm an accidental fire chief i didn't set out to become a fire chief i was you know very adamant about that that wasn't my career path but but once you're in that role and once you're in that in that position, you remember what it was to be a fireman and what you wanted the most out of your fire chief was to be supported. And how that support manifests is when the city, the municipality, the district, they support you. And so those are your wins. And they're often silent. You don't know nobody's singing your praises.

Kris Blume: Nobody sings the praises of the fire chief, right? Uh it's a very lonely position and that's okay. That's one of the things that you have to take. Corley: In fact, it's the opposite. It's the opposite, generally speaking. Kris Blume: 100%. 100%. You know, and yeah, I I I I know I have haters and to quote quote Cameron Haynes, the bow hunter, I love my haters. I love all of them. They're fuel. Pour a little more. All right, a few things. Corley: A few things to touch on. Brene Brown, courage to lead. I'm a huge huge fan of Brene Brown. Have not read the book yet. So I I follow a lot of her stuff, but uh, and I love her talks I I think I but anyway, not the point. I haven't read it. Uh Stephen Covey, Seven Habits is one of the books that absolutely changed my life. One of my favorite books, probably in my top three. If you put a gun to my head and I had to pick a top three. Kris Blume: So nice Corley: The one more thing I was gonna say, but I forgot what it was. That's that's the problem with my brain. So man, it'll come to me at some point. I got questions coming at you from the audience though. First one's coming at you from Robend. Rob Rob Fisher. He said, Chief, you left a well-established department. Rob F and Fisher, I'm sorry. Well established department. To lead one that's rapidly growing. What leadership principles did you refuse to compromise during oh, I remembered, so that's why I'm stopping right in the middle of the question. David Rhodes speech because it's right on point with what you were talking about. And I wanted to wrap it up with that, which is me and you were both talking about the impact of that speech. speech that we both felt from it when he got up there and talked about the price of toxic leadership, the price of the basically tying it right into what you said about a leader having your back. I think A leader having your back might be the most powerful force in an organization is when you know you can make a decision. The decision has to be made in the gray. If you do it with the proper intention. And you know your leader's gonna have your back.

Corley: Even if you screwed up, they have your back because they like anyway. That was the kind of the my the Opposite was what David Rhodes was talking about is how toxic it is when you live in an area where you know your leader, you know in fact that your leader is waiting for you to screw up because he does he he's looking to not have your back. Kris Blume: Yeah. Corley: So again, I wanted to touch on that because Okay. Yeah. Kris Blume: No, yeah. I mean but that was that was a life-changing speech for me, the David Rhodes' speech at FDIC 2025. And I'll tell you right now for everybody in your audience, if you want to go have a career changing experience you need to make your way to FDIC. I don't care if your agency pays for it. I don't care if you're out of your pocket. It will change you. You will be a better fireman. You will be better at the craft um for having gone. It that that's all I have to say about that piece. Did it but sorry Corley, did you did was there was there something you wanted me elaborate on with in the I want I didn't

Corley: When I first thought of it, there was a question to put with your point about silence. But I'll go to Rob Fisher's. I'll let my ADHD go and we'll pivot right to Rob Fisher. You have that too? You left a well-established department to lead one that's rapidly growing. What leadership principles did you refuse to compromise on during that transition? And where did you realize you had to adapt? Kris Blume: Damn Rob, we could spend a while on this one. You know, one of the things about uh I I I have only the greatest um I Tucson Fire Department as a metro agency, 24 fire stations, they continue to do exceptional mission. They have have they've had dwindling resources. They have a brilliant, incredible, amazing new fire chief, Sharon McDonough. And when I look back in my career and I look at people who have been mentors of mine, the list is actually very, very small. She is at the absolute top of that. She's one of the best fire ground commanders. She's one of the best administrators. I could have an hour conversation about her leadership ability and acumen. You know, leave leaving the the the city of Tucson and to go to Meridian, Idaho, where I currently am the fire chief. Uh it wasn't an easy decision, but I had met my rule and I had I was able to retire. Um and I wanted to go back home. And home for me was in the Treasure Valley of Idaho. My family's either from Emmett North uh m you know, in the Treasure Valley or up in Lewiston, which is in the northern part, aunts and uncles across the state. And so the idea of coming home was was always the goal. I mean I I was down in Tucson, Arizona for 27 years, and the idea always was to get get my family back home. And one of the things that I recognized when I got here in Meridian was, and this is something I think is very important as a takeaway for a fire chief to understand. They were doing fine before you got there. So understand, and I think that one of the things in answering Rob's question, one of the things that I had to do, and what I was mo very willing to do, was to take that as a frame of reference and not come in swinging a big stick.

Kris Blume: Hey, I'm a guy from a metro agency and here's how we're going to do it at a smaller department That was absolute that would have been counterintuitive to having, you know, to being successful. What I did was sat in with the command staff and said, hey, listen. You guys were running a successful fire department before I got here. My goal is to do the same. Like I want us to continue to be successful and to continue to grow. And as we uncovered, you know, started kicking up rocks and started seeing where our vulnerabilities and where our opportunities were, certainly being able to communicate that with the city and the leadership was what allowed us. And again, I I can't Corley, I gotta be honest with you, man. If a fire chief were to ever be lucky enough to walk into and have the leadership team that I currently have here in the Meridian Fire Department, they will have hit the jackpot. I have absolute studs, men and women. I mean they they are I I I would put them up against any department in the country pound for pound across the country. They are values-driven, mission-focused. They are all in. And that's something you can't manufacture. But to answer Rob's question on a deeper level, what were my non-negotiables? I was willing to, and one of the things that I had always taken with me as a company officer, you know, or in any line leadership was the desire to be as transparent with communication as I possibly legally could be. If I knew it and could legally answer the question, I'm gonna answer it for you. I'm gonna give it to you. And and and I and I, you know, it it's funny because that's met with uh incredible amount of trepid. Oh yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. You're gonna be honest with us. And it what it really required in is specifically in meeting with the union leadership was sitting across the table with somebody who I consider one of my You know, I don't have a lot of friends in in as a fire chief, but this the the the fire the uh union president at the time's absolute stud. He grew up in this agency. He knows where all the bones are buried. And sitting across the table with him, you know, he was very armored.

Kris Blume: And again, I'm going to use some Brene Brown. He was coming in with an armored approach. And, you know, finally I I I, you know, uh obviously picking the the venue. I said, hey, let's let's have a conversation. Let's go have a beer. Let's go talk about something. I said, hey man, you coming in armored and waiting to drop the next grievance and do the it ain't gonna work I said, I'm here to work for you and I'm here to work with you. I have, we are on the same team. And if we can't get to that place, we're not going to be successful together. He's now my division chief of emergency response. He's a brilliant mind in the craft and in the profession. And he saw it and he believed it. And he gave me the opportunity to prove that to him. And it was, you know, in in working with union leadership, I think that that's probably so answering Rob's question, there's two pieces to that, right? There's working with your union, if you have a union. They're they're wonderful to have, right? They're providing, you know, they're providing that floor that, hey, here's our non-negotiables, here's what has to be met. and opportunities for growth. And then you have that piece where you have to meet the city and you have to make um you know leadership decisions with the city. And the non-negotiable that overrides that whole thing was I'm going to be honest. to the point that it's painful. And uh and again, it's not about airing of grievances. It's about picking the venue. Picking the environment, right? You don't have these conversations of vault with that are very vulnerable, that are honest with groups of people. You have them in one-on-one in one-off conversations. Closed door, hey, I'm gonna have the same conversation with this person, but I want to talk to you. I want to have this conversation with you. I want to know what your fears are, what what what the vulnerabilities are. What can I do to make that happen? And I think that if you go into it in that mindset, the non-negotiable is I'm not going to, I'm going to over-communicate. Because if you know how often, Coralie, have you heard that as a fault of a leader? They overcommunicated.

Corley: Yeah, never. Kris Blume: Right, right. Corley: So that that maybe as a joke. That's only in a sarcastic manner. Kris Blume: Amen. And then the only other thing that I would say is trust. And trust is one of those things that has to be given. And evaporates immediately. But and and to rebuild it, I don't know what rebuilding trust looks like. But I think if you can only be honest, you'll never violate that trust. Corley: No, and I love one of the recurring themes. So I've talked to a few fire chiefs, like I said before. I've had a few conversations with them, and one of the recurring themes With the ones I talk to. So let me be clear on that. Is they almost all they almost all have in some way, shape, or form say, hey, listen, my people are absolute rock stars. That's your term that you use today. But it they use that language to say I I fact I think Scott Thompson says I will take my people that I have and I will stack them up against anybody in the country, which is almost verbatim what you said. Kris Blume: I would say the same damn thing. Pound for pound, 100%.

Corley: But and again, I know that this like it goes it runs contrary to your soul and your motivation, but how much of that is because of the leadership that's in place, allowing them to be rock stars? Right. And uh and empowering them to be so. And I know you're not going to say, oh, you're absolutely right. It is because of me. But that's it's a recurring theme that I see over and over and over. Like there is no bad teams, only bad leaders. I believe in that principle. I really do But the inverse of that is also true. There are no good teams, there are only good leaders. And the problem is good leaders refuse, or not refuse, they hate to acknowledge that because then it seems to be taking away from their people. Kris Blume: Well, Corley, I gotta tell you, and I don't and I don't want to get too crazy with the name dropping, but my deputy fire chief, my number two, I've got three that are studs, that are absolute studs, and my operations chief. You know, there's a pedigree that that came along with this operations chief. He was a uh officer of Marines. He's a Marine Corps officer. Led a scout sniper platoon in Fallujah. His uh counterpart was Jocko Wilnick. Brother, you need to have him on your show. And and if if there are is any success that I have had it's because of the three deputy chiefs that I've had and certainly with the operations chief that I've had. And you know one of the most powerful things that he does all the time that you know I think the military does a very good job at at this. is when something doesn't go right, he doesn't blame the fire chief. And we do these operational updates. We do these weekly. He'll come on And he'll say, hey, we did this, we executed on this, we took this action, we did the X, Y, and Z. It didn't work out. That's on me. I could have done a better job, this, that, and the other. He doesn't blame the fire chief. He doesn't blame the battalion chiefs and their inability to implement it. He takes the ownership of it. And you can't manufacture that. And so this gentleman is lightning in a bottle. If he left, I think I'd follow right right out the door with him because he all three of my deputy chiefs, quite frankly.

Kris Blume: are the story of my success, if there is any story to tell. Corley: No, hey, uh again, I am just commenting on the theme that I see recurring. in the message you're saying. And so uh the next question is coming at you from Matthew, KFD. He said, was it hard to get buy-in from Cruz being an outsider? Our last outside chief got ran out of town 20 years ago for bringing new and different ideas to the department. Kris Blume: Man, oh my goodness. Boy, you know what, Coral, you got a hell of an audience because these are these are these are brilliant questions. So to be clear, one of the things that was very off-putting in the previous agency that I was in. was one of the previous uh fire chiefs that we brought in and he can continued to reflect and talk about his previous agency I was like, so yeah at the outset that puts you in a comparative analysis that like, well, we're not as good as where you came from. But we're doing a pretty damn good job here. And so I was very cautious at the outset to make any commentary about previous experience with previous agencies. But but I was there for about three months and I didn't realize this. And the previous fire chief was an amazing gentleman. He's gone on and continues to do some amazing things. in the fire service and will continue to do amazing things in the fire service but their comment to me was well at least you're a fireman And I said, well, what do you mean? They're like, our previous chief had no, he didn't know the difference between an adze and the fork end of a Halligan. He wasn't a fireman. And so, you know, a part of that is is I think that the school of hard knocks and the experience that we gain from the back step and the front left seat, the front right seat, medic units. all of those things create this body of work that gives us credibility in our role. And, you know, quite frankly, I feel bad for that guy not having that experience because he did a very good job for the A agency and has again went on to another agency and is is doing some amazing things for the fire service. And so I just feel bad, but their one of their measuring sticks was, well at least you're a fireman.

Kris Blume: I'm like, man, well, of course I am. Like that's that's my only so coming into a new agency, I think it goes back to one of the things that I said uh previously was it's recognizing That they have pride, they have traditions, they have a culture, and it's not yours, it's theirs. And they're they were fine. They were just fine. No matter how crappy the scenario, they were just fine before you got there If you can see yourself as sprinkling just a little bit of extra on the top, and then just add a little bit more and a little bit more, you can kind of turn the needle, but you have to give you honor who they were as an agency under the conditions, under the leadership, under whatever they had before they were doing fine before you got there, right? I mean, I I think that, you know, in in general terms, that's the truth. And so when you show up, you have to honor, you have to acknowledge, and you have to appreciate who they were as an agency before you got there. And then you have to be all in. Like They do not need to hear that this is a leapfrog evolution for you to heading to another metro agency or to heading to the big the big showsome. You're all in. This is this is it. And you know, it's funny because bless my my wife actually uh she didn't go to something this evening It's very near and dear to her heart to allow me to do this because she lets me follow this dream. But when when we took when when we as a family made the commitment, made to the decision coming up here, I told her, I said Babe, this is a this is a terminal position. Like I'm either going to get fired or I'm going to retire. And hopefully I get to choose which of those two. And I've seen, and that's that that is the life of a fire chief. And so then I've also said, made some comments, again, answering the question that that was asked. uh you know hopefully you get to choose your off ramp. Hopefully you get to choose. But it's going to come. And as a fire chief, you you it's lightning in a bottle, it's a it's a firefly in a bottle.

Kris Blume: It's going to come to an end and hopefully you get to choose your off-ramp. Corley: Dude, it's a great question and a great answer to break it down. I've got questions coming at you from the audience. And I like Jeremy Humphrey, who's one of my favorite question askers, but he says, Well, I lost it. What is the biggest lie firefighters tell themselves about leadership and why is it so dangerous? What is the biggest, most dangerous lie that firefighters tell themselves about leadership? Kris Blume: Jeremy? Corley: You get a paint with a big, really broad brush here, so you can go any direction you want. Kris Blume: That is. What's the lie that they tell themselves? Man, I you know, yeah, you you know, uh honestly And I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna start this one off with it starts from a position of cowardice. The the biggest lie that they tell themselves Is that leadership doesn't care, leadership doesn't know, leadership is doing this, leadership is doing that. Are we? So the biggest lie is that they're telling a story that they don't know the answer to. And what I mean by that is I don't agree with open door policy. I mean, you don't get to jump the battalion chief. I mean, again, there are egregious behaviors that have to be addressed immediately when they're when they're confronted. But I can tell you right now, even in the agency that I'm in, and even as a coward in my previous agency, if I confronted a lie or something that I perceived as a lie, I never had the courage to go talk to the person. That was espousing it, saying, hey, there's this going on, or there's that going on, or the chief's doing this. So shame on you for not having the courage to communicate Shame on you for not taking the opportunity to find the moment, to pick the moment, and say, hey, listen, I'm hearing something. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Because I can tell you, well, I don't want to speak on any other fire chief's behalf, but I covet that. And I can tell you I have had In the time, in the five years that I've been in the fire chief's office, I've had, I could count them. I'd be willing to guarantee I've had ten people that come in my office that have had had a question about anything.

Kris Blume: And one of the uh when we talk about the lie, one of the things that has stuck out with me was I had a uh a deputy chief in Tucson, Jeff Thompson. Brilliant, wonderful, wonderful fire ground officer, wonderful human being. Loved working for him. And I would come into his office, and I came into his office one time and I said, Hey, listen, man, uh, there's a rumor out there that So and so's doing such and such. And he goes, really? Hmm. He picked up the phone, looked at the roster they're on today, called them and said, hey, I'm hearing this And so this is the thing, you know, anything that can get brought into the light will kill that bullcrap. you know, lie that that that people are telling themselves. And and you know, my the thing that I took away from that the most was the courage that he had to say, I'm going to confront this. I'm going to be bold and communicate this. And so the biggest lie that I would tell people or that people are telling themselves. is that they're believing things and they do not have the facts. They don't have, you know, and again, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna make a comment on whether they're administrative as being administration is being restrictive and they're not commenting and we can't comment for legal reasons. But if you're not even asking the question, then shame on you for believing the lie.

Corley: No, and it's like I said, it was a very broad question because it there's so much nuance and specifics you could get into in a specific department where, you know, depending on the there could be everything from truly manipulative, narcissistic, toxic leadership all the way down to benign, silent leadership that you know may have the same outcome, but is absolutely different motivation. Kris Blume: You just talked about dark triad. Corley: I'm not sure what that means. It sounds sounds cool as hell. Yeah. Sounds like a comic book villain. Okay. Should be. I'm sorry. Rob Fisher again. Rob F. and Fisher coming at you. I like this. This is a little change of pace. Uh chief, in your fast growing department. Meridian. How do you developers? How do you develop future officers fast enough to keep up with the growth without lowering the bar? Kris Blume: Great question. So if you were to talk, Rob, if you were to talk to my agency. We have set a standard. And that standard is an elevated standard. And the first three years that I was here, we had very low success rate at the company officer in battalion, Sheifrang. We had a bit of a fluctuating standard and you know just inconsistency and what we would say.

Corley: When you say success rate, when you you said success success rate? I did. Kris Blume: It's success rate in being successful at a captain's or a battalion chief's promotional exam. Corley: Okay, okay. Kris Blume: Yeah, so um Rob is spot on, right? I mean, so the agency here in Meridian, Idaho has grown 40%. Over the past four years. And so with that, we've had a necessity for battalion chiefs and company officers, people being willing, or not willing. but being being qualified to move into those roles. And so what we did was we recognized where what our current standard was four years ago. And we said, no, no, no, no, we need to bring this in alignment with uh, you know, uh uh industry best practices, who who we are currently as an agency and who we who we need to be moving into the future. And so it you know Rob asks a great question because it's been painful. We had multiple uh testing sequences where nobody was successful. And of course, where do you think they go with that, right? Well They go to the union, they go to and and rightfully so, right? I mean I I I please don't think I'm crapping on the union, right? If if we're not following consistent uh protocol and process and procedure, we we we deserve all the onus of that But what we did was we elevated our standard because we wanted them to be successful in that role. And then what we started to see was one-offs. Well we had eight people test and one person was successful. And then we had eight people test and three people were successful. We just recently ran through, and so this is a to answer Rob's question, this is an iterative process. Um it it's not about lowering the standard or changing the standard, it's about training and equipping people so that they're going to be successful in in those roles. And one of the things that I encountered when I first got here, and again, it's just an outgrowth of growth of a department was ah they did they did fine enough like we'll give them the sign and and let them move they'll learn right they'll learn and roll and it's like no no no like no Like you you're not going to learn at a line of death firefighter uh funeral what needed to happen back in company officer training.

Kris Blume: And so for people to be successful, they needed to be successful in multiple components of their of their process. And again, I would say using the term, it's an iterative process. Like we we changed it We modified it, we changed it again, and now we have a standard. Similarly, we've done the same thing in our fire academy. You know, our fire academy, uh It w it was what it was when I got here. And now we've gotten to a point where we have established a standard. We've established a recruitment criteria. And the first time and and you know coming from Tucson, and I know this wasn't the case in Tucson, but we uh and again economies of scale, we provided uh 10 uh uh uh recruitment letters to people that enter our recruitment academy this last year in 2025 and all 10 graduated. That's the first time that's ever happened So we've we've elevated our entry standard and we have established that the standard to graduate the Meridian Fire Academy is here. Now it's not smoked diver. But it's you're you're gonna be able to do the job. And we we haven't waived from that. And and so uh again, I I I apologize for the long-winded answer for Rob, but it's The the the the the answer is uh establishing and maintaining an unwavering standard. And we've done that.

Corley: No, it's beautiful. And one of the and I like to I like I'd love to sit here and just psychoanalyze with my my firehouse kitchen table psychology degree. Kris Blume: Yeah brother let's have our cup of coffee. Let's do it. Corley: But no one of the things you said in that in that was you said I It's again, it goes back to the set the cost of silence, which is hey, we'll just promote them anyway. No big deal, they'll learn as they go, right? And and you said and one of the things you said, you said, no, they are we're not gonna have them learn at a line of duty death what not to do And whether you intentionally or not, you you I how important it is to have that, I don't know if it's vision or if it's value, but understanding that value, I'll put I'll put value on it. That tenant that no, this this is the tenant by which I'm making that that's your heuristic by which you're making your decision, whether you're applying it to that the battalion chiefs test or you're applying it to that uh that rookie academy Heuristics. Kris Blume: Nice word, heuristics.

Corley: Sorry. Bonus points. Flow chart simple gut decision making process. But Uh sorry you distracted me. But sorry. But the thing is what what I love is I analyze your question or answer is that You do that without even thinking about it because it's just part of who you are, part of your identity, and part of the reason why I think you're successful as a fire chief, which is again that part you don't like to talk about because it's it's not about you, but you know what I'm saying. You understand what I'm saying. Kris Blume: I I appreciate it, brother. Yes, I do. Corley: And it and it again, that cost the silence. Which is how many people have said, hey, we need to put these butts in seats. So who cares if they actually like, look, let's get them on there, let the crews train them up, or let's get them on there. We understand, but it was just this time. You know what I'm saying? Or yeah, we know that guy doesn't bunk out when he goes to fires, but it's okay. because he'll probably make it through a 30-year career and it will never matter. You know what I'm saying? And and truthfully, that might be true for most people. You know, and that's the part of it is it might be true, but until it's not.

Kris Blume: Yeah, and and again if you if you look it through the experiential lens, I mean it's like, you know, the the the people that are hot messes I don't need any more of those. And again, I I you coming from Tucson, it's like, man, how and and you know, Corley, you know this, right? I mean, you're as a battalion chief when you retired, like there were company officers that when they showed up on your scene, you're like Thank God it's that person. And then you had other people that showed up and you're like, oh shit. Your foot hit the gas pedal because you're like, I gotta get there because it's gonna go sideways in a hurry. Right. And so, you know, you become the gatekeeper on that. And it's like you're going to, you know, promote what you permit. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. There has to be a standard. And the standard has to be upheld. Because again, yeah, it it I could go down liability and legal roles as a fire chief now, but yeah. Corley: No, it's it no, it's a it's a I I just love the fact that it was just part, it's just it's just there. It's a baseline. And even though it was for you, it was just you talking through the the answer to Rob's question, it's actually what drove the where you're currently at in your department. And that's a beautiful, beautiful thing to pick apart. Because it's the opposite of silence. It's speaking up and communicating it. So uh I love this one coming at you. Uh sometimes we get questions. Again, this is the book you need to write if you know the answer to this question. So it's I I just like to hear your take on it because Lowell Austin DFD Truckee Truckee Brother.

Kris Blume: Okay. Knuckle Dragger. Corley: Is there any way that a firefighter on the back step can influence the top chiefs to become better leaders? To create better relationships. So go ahead. Kris Blume: 100%. 100%. Hey, brother, hop off the back step. March your ass up to the fire chief's office and sit down with them and have a closed door conversation. That that that's what that's what I could tell you. There is no person the the fire chief should be the the one person that is most accessible to you. You're not going to have access necessarily to the mayor or a council member or a or a district, you know, uh you know, w w you know a district uh chairman or something like this that and the other but your fire chief is making decisions that you know it bless his heart that the gentleman that just passed away from Top Gun, you know, the fire chief is writing checks that your butt has to cash, right? And and and so if if there is a incongruency there. you owe it to that fire chief to at least be heard. And I would argue on a deeper level Just document it. Like, hey, listen, I had this significant I this is a concern of mine. What are you doing to address it? Because again, maybe you don't have it from the back step, you don't have the the the perspective or the understanding of of what is in play. Sure. And in and in and in seeking that You may walk away with a better and a more satiating answer. And let me tell you something. If the fire chief is worth his their salt, his or her salt, what they're going to do is they're going to invest in you in that conversation. Why? Because they know, or they should know, you're gonna go sit around the coffee table with a cup of coffee and you're gonna say, yeah, I know this is jacked up right now, but here's the fire chief's vision Here's what the plan is. And now you become an advocate for what the fuck. And again, I don't want to dismiss people's Shame on any fire chief that doesn't hear this and say, yes, please do that.

Corley: Right. Kris Blume: Come to my office. Come to my maybe you need to make an appointment and maybe it needs to be four. you know, three days away. And and I'll tell you right now, one of the most off-putting things that ever happened to me in my fire service career is I walked into the fire chief's office at four four forty-five. I was on a twenty-four hour I worked five sixes 24 on 24. I was 445 in the in the afternoon. He was packing up his stuff and getting ready to go out the door. And I was just like, hey, do you have time? He's like, yeah, I have 15 minutes. Work-life balance. How tone deaf. Corley: Yeah, yeah. What message what message did you get from? Kris Blume: Amen, dude. Amen. And and again, I'm not saying fire chiefs are perfect. uh it it you know here's the thing that i want our our your listeners corley to take away from from from this if i were to cap in capture one leadership is a practice We give grace to lawyers who practice law. We give grace to physicians who practice medicine. We should give grace to leaders. Shame on me in the time that that happened to me. Said, hey, you know something, Chief? That's cool. I'm glad you have the opportunity for work-life balance. I'll be here till tomorrow at 8 o'clock in the morning so f i i i if i don't get another call that bangs me out and and i'm and i'm late to get home. perspective, right? I mean these things can be said respectfully, but leadership is a practice. And oftentimes we lose perspective. As we move into different roles, we lose perspective and so the the the opportunity for the back step truckee to say hey listen chief i'll be here till eight o'clock in the morning If that's met with silence or a tone deaf, shame on that fire chief. But that fire chief said, said, hey, you know something? Thanks. I appreciate that. Put their bags down and sit down and say, I'm all yours. What do you need, sir? What do you need, brother? And and and if that doesn't exist, I'm I'm I'm sorry. I'm I'm sorry. For for them. I mean I I'm sorry for them.

Corley: No, absolute absolutely. And and like so many things, the hardest lessons, the ones that I shouldn't say the hardest hardest lessons, but the lessons that stick the hardest are almost always the negative. Almost always. Like I can I love playing poker. I'm not good at poker, but I can remember the bad beats I can remember the bad beats so much more than I can the big wins. You know what I mean? And and I don't know why that's true about us as far as the negativity sticking so much. better. Kris Blume: Bro, capture that right there. That's that that's brilliant. That right there is brilliant. Corley: I love that. You're the best guest ever. I like it. You said brilliant. No, no. Kris Blume: It's it's It's true, amigo. Corley: I'm keeping score. Dana Larkin has a great one here because it's on the on the raising the bar. And he said, when you raise that bar and people started passing, Did the senior guys who weren't at the standard, did they step up or did they step out? Like how did what was that impact on on the The previous culture, I don't I don't know if I want to say it that way, but no, you okay, so so so great question.

Kris Blume: And and it's crazy because it again, I I struggle with the desire to name drop. But screw it. I'm going to do it anyway. We had a very well-respected fire engineer who was testing for captain. Ultimately, he ended up being the only person who was successful at being promoted. And his name's Sean Steer, and he was uh uh he was unsuccessful his initial attempt at at testing for captain. And so he took it very hard. And in talking with Sean Steer, he said You know, I took that very personal. I'd never failed anything in my life. I'd always been excellent at everything, this, that, and the other. And then his story to me, and the story that other firefighters retold me, was that he went back to the station and doubled down. He's like, man, I I missed this. I didn't do this. I got it. I should have done this right. Help me, help me, help me. And he started reaching out to everybody He retested and was successful. And his story to me was that was the most difficult test that he had ever gone through. But he ultimately ended up being successful. And my comment to him was, and always has been, and this is something that I very, very much believe in my heart Uh when when we put a captain's badge on somebody's uh uniform and when we give them the red fire helmet You can't hide anymore. People know who you are. You are a fire captain. You are given, you are given the responsibility. Of sending men and women into harm's way. And if I don't feel comfortable with your ability to make a good decision, you're not going to be put in that position. And so he took that to heart. And he was just like, yeah. And you know when I asked the question, I'll do our company officer training. Um I I usually do an introductory thing and and and you know being a company officer and having you know I I can talk to you about line of duty deaths, I can talk to you about grabs, all kinds of stuff at a metro agency. And I told them, because this was my lived experience, I said, if you are not terrified About sitting in the front right seat, being a company officer, knowing that the men and women to your left and to in the back seat are going to make decisions and take action based on what you tell them to do You should be terrified of that.

Kris Blume: And that should lend you to a mindset of always being a student. Being successful at the captain's promotion is not the finish line, it's the it's the start line. Like that's where you get to start to grow. You get the reps and the sets and the this, that, and the other. And at a metro agency, that mindset is, dude, I I'll be honest with you, man. And and and and I, you know, it's not a it's not a sign of it it's not a uh a badge of honor that in Mar in Tucson, we fought fire, man. Like we fought a sh ton of fire. Like all the time. In fact, my last two years as a battalion chief, I remember laying in bed and the tones would drop and we'd be going to a multi-alarm and I was like, mother, like another one? So I'm kind of quiet about jobs. Like it's like, dude, I got I I was job towned out when I left. Sure, they they they live for it. And this, that, and the other. And rightfully so, man. That's what we train for. That's the tip of the spear. And shame on me for being burnt out. in in that role. But but I'll tell you, if it doesn't terrify you the first time, the second time, the tenth time as a company officer and you're rolling out of that station and you see that header and you know it's Job Town and you know you're sending these people in, you should be terrified. And what I hope is that you have the skill set, the mindset, and and the aptitudes Because we're going to have provided you the equipment and training so that you can go in there and do the thing, save the person and and kick its ass. Like that that's that's my job. Or that that's the job, right? And so that's always how I lead into the company officer thing. It's like, man, if you're not terrified, you're in the wrong classroom, man. You should be terrified At what this means at the responsibility. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. And I'm not saying that you but but dude, I understand the weight of this position man like it's it's the real deal like it is the real deal there is nothing more dangerous than what you're gonna do and then when we look in the community the the the the the the you know the the the the tier one operations of the special operations community, they're lucky that entire group, they're lucky to roll on one or five operations in their entire careers.

Kris Blume: We're doing that in a set. We're doing that in a tour. We're doing that in a year. We're going to Job Town, man. Like it's gonna it, you're putting it all on the line. Corley: No, I love the mindset. I love the mindset. And when you say terrified, it's almost like a hyperbolic word in the sense, but it's a respect. It's I'm not sure. Kris Blume: It's a respect. Thank you, Coralie. It's a respect. Corley: Well because I'm I love the I absolutely it's brilliant. I'll borrow your word. It's brilliant way to approach it because it was one of the I've never been able to put it into words until this interview right here, but it's one of the things that drove me from a battalion chief's position to to to to keep on trying to learn, to go to conferences, to take notes, is because I was terrified of Not it being my fault if I made a decision and I hadn't prepared enough to take care of those I was responsible for Shame on you. It doesn't mean that I I wasn't ready to make the decisions or I was terrified to make the decisions or terrified of the responsibility. It was that Man, I'm not doing enough. I need to do more to be, you know. And I'm not sure.

Kris Blume: Well, and I I'm gonna double down on something you just said right there, right? You go to conferences and you know one of the things that uh Stuck out with me. You and I, Jim Miller, Pittsburgh. Jim Miller's doing great things, Pittsburgh fire department. Dude, I showed up and I'm like, oh shit, there's Corley Moore. Sorry, I cursed. Corley: Oh yeah, scrap, you're good. You're clear. Kris Blume: No, I anyway, uh, so like, oh man, there's Corley Moore. He's up in the front row. He's got a notebook out. Wait, he's taking notes. You had pages of notes. And I was just like. Okay, I need to change my mindset. I am not the subject matter expert. I am here going to talk about a a narrow piece of the craft that I'm not even an expert on. But here's a guy sitting up in the front row taking notes. And then you recap those notes. Like you reiterate. Hey, I hope you all paid attention to Jason Hovelman. Hey, I hope you all paid attention to. I was just like, oh my gosh, we are always students of the craft. If we choose to be. And so my hat's off to you. And that's not because you let me be on your program here this evening. You're my favorite, yes. No, I was sitting there. I was just like, dude, I got my notebook. Like, I'm like, man, if Coralie's taking notes, I'm taking notes.

Corley: Well, that's because of my broken brain. So I have to always qualify because I can't remember nothing. Kris Blume: So you're just too plain. just you're self-deprecating. Corley: I'm terrible at taking compliments. I'm sorry. So thank you. You and me both. All right. Uh I love it, man. Dude, I'm telling you, we got to we we got The thing is, I want to hear I want to talk about Carry the Fire. I want to talk about Carry the Fire. What what you mean by Carry the Fire? I want you to touch on that. Kris Blume: All right. So uh um Shout out to Fire Engineering. They published my book, Carry the Fire, The Crucible of Leadership in the Fire Service. And uh, you know, at the outset, I I I need to be clear, I mean I stole that. uh carry the fire. And specifically one of the best authors, I think one of the best authors in American, current American literature is Cormac McCarthy. And my my use of Carry the Fire comes from uh Cormac McMcCarthy's book, The Road. Uh don't watch the movie. The movie's fine, but the it it it takes away so much from it. But Cormac McCarthy, he he uses the metaphor in that book. And and in chapter twelve, there's a a s a segment that is pulled out in my book that I that I put I I put in there. But Carry the Fire is all about representing this idea of hope and humanity and a moral goodness. um in in a in a in a desolate really post apocalyptic world. And and the thing, as being a father The thing that I was really drawn to, and every time I read that book, and I read it often, by the way, uh, it is uh the relationship that a father has with his son. And you know, the the the the father in in the book, and it's it's referred to as the man and the son and the or the child or whatever, uh, but the father, you know, he implores. He doesn't just require, he he implores that the sun keeps, you know, his inner light alive. That, you know, um It it's about uh about a sick uh signifying a commitment to being a good guy. And, you know, despite your brutal surroundings or crappy leadership. It ensures that that compassion survives.

Kris Blume: And so when I when I talk about Carry the Fire, when I use Carry the Fire in the context of the book, It really is about making a choice. It's about a declare a self-declot declaration. It's about making a choice. It's about showing up on purpose. And taking care of people. And you know, it it it's about doing the right thing the right way you know, specifically when nobody's watching and and you know it's funny because I could get all weepy eyed about the whole thing because the sun the the the the The child in the book is talking to the father. And we can look at this in the sense of a firefighter talking to their captain. I don't want to get too crazy and Coralie, if I start crying, you need to cut to a cut to a thing. But yeah, the child doesn't recognize what they have within them. But that company officer, that fire, or the the the father does. And the father basically says you have the fire within you You have to carry it. It's up to you to carry the fire. And then the child's like, I don't know that I have it. I don't know what to do with it. Like, how am I going to move it forward? And he's like, it's in you And you have to move forward. You have to do the thing that I've taught you to do. You have to move forward in the way that I've taught you to move forward. And so I parlayed that very emotional to me. um statement and and i'll tell you to to your guest if if your people want to read the most The the Shakespeare of American literature in current time, it's Cormac McCarthy. The man is still alive. And the stuff that he's written, whether it's The Road, Blood Meridian, I could go on, it's like reading Shakespeare on steroids. The man is a brilliant wordsmith. And and it it it it's just carry the fire just resonated with me like it's such a a metaphysical level that it's just like dude that that's what it's all about and and you know ultimately at the end of the day Corley it's easy to carry the fire when it's easy Sure. And there's no wind.

Corley: Yeah. Kris Blume: There are no shit talkers at the kitchen table. It's easy. But it's very hard to protect that fire and keep it within side you. and and and and move forward. And and that's the thing that, like I said, yeah. Cormick McCarthy, brother, read you have you read any of this? Corley: No, no, I've not. No, I've not. I Kris Blume: Don't read it like you're supposed to read a book, dude. It's it's Shakespeare on steroids. It's nuts. Blood meridian, Julie Blood Blood Meridian. How yeah, anyway, you you should read Cormac McCarthy, hands down. Corley: I'm on I'm on a fiction kick right now. Kris Blume: Uh and so I and Cormic McCarthy's up your alley, brother. Corley: I was gonna say this is the one I'm using to hold up this laptop here This is the one I was reading on the plane. And so I don't know how I don't know what you're gonna. But I've never read it. I've never seen the miniseries either. So it's all new to me. But uh it's a it's a Pulitzer winner. I didn't know that. I've I've never read a Pulitzer. Okay. Well good for you, man. But anyway, no, I was saying uh I'm on a fiction kick at the moment, so I will check it out for sure. Especially as passionate as you are about it.

Kris Blume: No, yeah, Corm McCarthy, anything you read by him is is Is great and he's still alive. Corley: Let's talk books. Let's talk books. Let's segue to books. Obviously, you're coming back. I'm just telling you this straight up. A, you're coming back. B, you're probably gonna be one of the solos because I want to dig into one of these topics. and just really solo it out. But that being said, uh let's talk books. Books or books that you think firefighters should be reading? You mentioned a couple. Kris Blume: So Yeah uh Corley, I'm a nerd. I mean I uh you you and I talked about this pre pre- I I've read more, you know, and and here's the thing with reading, man. Even the book that I wrote, it's so easy to write a book about leadership. It's so easy to executing on it and doing doing it it is is the challenge. And so answering your question about books. How much time do we have? I'm gonna be quick. I'll I'll give you four. I'll give you four because those are the top of my head. I love books. So this is this is my favorite question I asked So let me ask you this one, and I haven't I haven't listened to all of your things. I don't know that this one's that this one's been been brought up, but it's it's probably the one the most transformative book that I read as a company officer

Corley: Okay. Kris Blume: That I think is, I mean, dude, put it on the top of the bookshelf. It's uh a book called uh The Mission, The Men and Me. Have you read that one? Pete Black? Okay. Well, just to reiterate on that, you know, um one of the things, I mean, he had me at he hooked me in hit his book. when he talked about his time as a Delta Force operator. And over the course of his career, he wrote on post-it notes in the back of napkins. Here's a leadership principle. Here's a leadership principle. I related to that. I'm like, oh my gosh. And and you know the the the W one of the the the the three overriding themes that I pulled out of that that that I think that are relevant for whether you're a company officer or battalion chief, because I think that that's the domain that this lives in best, is that it's it's it's about being prepared. Being well-trained, well-equipped, well-staffed, versus perfect. Don't ever seek perfect. Seek being prepared for whatever. And then ultimately leading into that, I would think, is his second principle. It's being able to adapt to chaos. Brother, that's what we do. How many times does our MDT or our or uh dispatch match what we show? We're dude, we're managing chaos out out of the GitHub. And if we're if we're responding predicated on what we think we're gonna show up to. We're behind the eight ball. And then ultimately, and one of the things, and again it it it it harkens back to the title of his his book is, you know, The Man, the Mission, the Me. Listen to your people. Listen to those folks that are closest to the work. You're never going to understand. Data is great. to make an informed decision. But if you're not sitting down with people and you don't understand boots on the ground, understanding what is going on, you're going to miss it by a million miles. Um two other books. And then I'm going to get to my ultimate leadership book of all time.

Corley: Okay, okay. I love your first one. I want to say real quick is that the the mission the minimum had me from the chapter one. Chapter one when he opens up with that whole mission on the bridge and the advancing armor. and and all the stuff going on. Kris Blume: Like the gorilla suit story too? Corley: Oh dude. Oh well dude, the whole thing, man. Kris Blume: I do too. Hey, no offense to Pete Blabber if he's listening to this. The rest of your books suck. This one is the one to listen to. This is the one to buy. Corley: Okay. Kris Blume: Because I bought all of them. Corley: Yeah, yeah. Kris Blume: But um the next book, Fighter Pilot. By it's the auto no, no, no, that that's another great one. Oh, okay, okay. Fighter pilot is uh Robin Olds. It's the autobiography of Robin Olds, uh the most winningest winning winningest ace of uh air combat spanning from Korea through Vietnam. Dude, that the I I've reread that three times. Phenomenal book. Um the second one or the third one. Corley: I haven't heard of that. I haven't heard of that one, so I love that. Kris Blume: Robin Olds. Hey, listen, man. I'm gonna see you at FDIC, right? Yes. I'm gonna bring you a copy. I'm gonna bring you a copy. Don't buy it. I'm gonna bring you a copy.

Corley: Okay. You have to give me a personalized message in the front Kris Blume: Well I'll give you one of my books. Self-deprecating that one. Yeah, self-deprecating. All right. Third one, and then I'll get to my leadership one. Upstream. Dan Heats. Go ahead. Dan, upstream is what this is the mindset in the fire service that we should have we we should be adopting or should have adopted a long time ago. Dan Heats talks about the fire service. in 289 pages and never mentions the fire service once. It's about identifying problems before they manifest themselves. So Dan Heath Substream, um, I I know that the people that follow me, they're they're gonna know I'm an acolyte of that guy Corley: Okay. Finally. Is this tied to the whole the whole uh proverb, the anecdote of quit peeling people out of the water, go uh find out why they're falling in type deal? Kris Blume: Okay You already know the book. That's it. That's absolutely it. Corley: I love the title. So that's okay. Kris Blume: Sorry, go ahead. That's it. And then the last book, last book. I'm going to blow people away here. If you want a leadership book. If you want the quintessential leadership book, The Giving Tree by Shell Silverstein.

Corley: Silverstein. Kris Blume: If you read that As a child, it is. And if you read that as a child, you'll read it one way. And if you read it when you're an 18-year-old. You'll read it another way. When you're a leader in an organization and when you're a leader put in a position where you're sending men and women into harm's way up to their death, You'll see it a different way. I can't read that book now without crying. I weep like a a baby, dude The Giving Tree, Shell Silverstein. That that right there, you want a leadership book, you give that to your probationary firefighters, your recruit firefighters, and you say, I want you to revisit this book. throughout your career because your role in this book will change. And it's 20 pages long, I think, ish. Corley: No, I I mean I've I don't I can't count the number of Silverstein books that I've had with my kids, but yeah, I'm sure I'm sure that's one of them. Kris Blume: And so now I want to hear you're gonna read it to your kids with tears in your eyes. Corley: I'm gonna read it to my to my grandson because he's I just just the one, but he's he's amazing and he I he gets books read to him all the time.

Kris Blume: So do it. Corley: Uh little bear come play with me, I think is his current little yeah any anyway anyway yes uh we'll check out the giving tree and and i'm anxious to check this out uh i love it which takes me to one of my favorites Yep. One of my favorite, uh, absolute favorite things to do is the five questions for firefighters. Oh, yeah. It's been going on a long time on the scrap. And where our current version is 5. 0. I like these questions a lot. There are a lot of fun questions here. And there are no right answers. They're just your opinion. And the points are arbitrary passed out by me with the help of the YouTube audience. So Kris Blume, are you ready for the five questions for firefighters? Version 5. Kris Blume: 0. I'm gonna do my best. I'm gonna do my best. Corley: Here we go Kris Blume: Yeah. Corley: Here we go. Number one, you can do anything in the world except be a firefighter. What would you choose to be? Kris Blume: Well, you threw the photo up of of skydiving. So I'm gonna remove that one from from the list. Um my wife would appreciate that. I I would say I would be a I I would be a pilot. I would be not a commercial airline pilot. So I I I am a pilot. I have my commercial license. I've done all of the things. Man, we should have had this conversation back when I lived in Tucson. Because I used to fly down with a twin-engine airplane down to Cabo San Lucas all the time, take firefight. before I was married and I had a lot of fun. Um but I I I would I would I would do commer I would do commercial pilot any I mean man it's You know, there there's a saying, I'll keep it quick, man. Uh, and it always resonated with me. You know, a mile of road won't take you too far, but a mile of runway will take you anywhere.

Corley: Nice. Plasma. There's a theme that runs firefighters and fly and flying is a fighter pilot is usually, or jet pilot, you know, is is a theme. I don't know if anybody's ever said actually just a commercial dude it really it's it's a recurring theme since we started asking this question. Uh not not a hundred percent, but I would say Sam could probably back it up probably seventy percent Kris Blume: No shit. Well, you know what's crazy about that is I, you know, I have a friend who is the Marine Corps pilot of the year, who's a great near and dear friend of mine. We went to Officer Canada school together in Marine Corps. And, you know, he he he retired. And I said, dude, do you miss it? And he said, nope, not at all. He was a Harrier pilot, pilot of the year. Oh wow. All of these things. And he's and he and he's just like, nope, I don't miss it at all. I don't, I don't fly, I don't do anything. So I was just like And I don't know how I could reconcile that with being a fireman. Like you're gonna bury me in my office is how I feel So anyway.

Corley: Okay. And max points, by the way. Great, great, great opening. Great opening, max points. Um it up here so I can see. One for one, max points so far. We'll see how you do All right, getting caught up here. So I'm I'm on the right spot so I can see the live. Uh all right. Number two, it's job town. It's time. You're in route and responding. You got to think of that scene from backdrive. where he's slapping that cassette tape into that tape deck, what song are you playing while you're in route? Kris Blume: Alright. So thought about this a little bit, Coralie. Corley: Okay. Kris Blume: I'm gonna give you I'm gonna can I give you two answers Corley: You you have you you run the risk of not getting max. Kris Blume: Sam says one. Sam says one. I'm seeing Sam saying one. Here's the thing. I'm gonna give you two. I don't care. Depends on my position in the apparatus. If you're talking to the firefighter 20 years ago, I'm listening to AFI, I'm listening to the used, I'm listening to Pennywise, Authority Zero, my boys from uh uh Arizona. That's what I'm listening to. But now as a company officer, right? So now I'm imagining myself in the front right seat. I'm I'm imagining going to Job Town. We got work. We know that it's going to happen. And I'm listening to what I would want my crew listening to is won't back down. And I'm not talking about the Tom Petty version, which is a brilliant rendition i'm talking about the uh johnny cash acoustic version oh um because because quite frankly um my experience has been uh i don't need firefighters who are amped up I want firefighters who are who are dialed in. I want people that are calm, they're deliberate, they're thinking ahead. And sort of whatever we would be listening to, I would think would put us into that space. And so, you know, going to that work, going to that job town isn't about being fired up. We've already trained for this. I I I don't remember who said it, right? But it's like, you know, the trash man doesn't turn around the corner and see a garbage can and and and be like, ooh, there's garbage, right? No, we're we're we're going to do our work. And so what I want our people to be is locked in.

Kris Blume: And that Johnny Cash version of Won't Back Down. You know what? I hope they play that at my funeral Corley: So that what that one is your answer, the Johnny Cash. Johnny Cash won't back down. The other one was just for reference. And I get it. Kris Blume: No, dude, if I was in the back seat, man, I mean, and and I was, there was a point, right? I was in there back there with Corley: But won't back down, Johnny Cash. That's the one we'll be adding to the Spotify playlist because there is a Spotify playlist with all of these answers out there. So that's the one we'll be adding. Kris Blume: Yeah, if you can listen to that as a fireman with not a tear in your eye Corley: Don't tell me. Hey, if you can you can put the man in black on the list, and so that makes uh absolute absolute max point. So number three, number three. Number three. I know. But I have to be real, but you did it well. You did it well. You did it well because there was one one distinct answer Cold weekend at the station. Checks are done. Training's done. Uh PT's done. You've done your workout. Everything's done. It's a cold day at the station. And it's one of those lazy days where there's nothing to do. And you're clicking through the channels. Waiting for the calls. What is that movie for you? I'm going to lose max points on this one, Corley.

Kris Blume: I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to give you I'm going to give you Dude, I'm going to throw you the ball, brother, because I've again, and I are you presenting the nine L's at uh FTSC? Corley: No, not the nine L's. It's a decision-making class at FDIC this year. Kris Blume: Well, your nine L's is an amazing class. And and one of the one of the things that one of the things that you throw it in in there, I don't want to say through in there, but one of the things that you include in there is Band of Brothers. So I don't uh annually at Christmas time, my my wife and son usually travel back to home in Arizona. And for that week, my my My release is to sit down and watch start to finish Band of Brothers. And the reason that I say that is because it has evolved for me. Like I I've watched that as a company officer. as a battalion chief, as an administrative chief, and as a fire chief. And it has evolved. And I, dude, it's timeless. Dick Winters, like I I would follow that man to the gates of hell and not even ask why we're there. Okay, so that's that question. I'm gonna lose max points. Second answer, more importantly, tombstone. The one with Val Kilmer, with uh I mean uh uh dude it it's got everybody in it And again, if you want to look at that in the through the lens of leadership. Stoic leadership, servant leadership, dude, it's it's all there. Tombstone, brother. Tombstone. That's a good idea. Get Oscars for that

Corley: Phenomenal answer. Either one of those answers as your answer would have absolutely been would have absolutely been max points. But as it is, we move on to number four. And this one is on the clock. So you have a clock, you have one minute to answer because we had to put a clock on it because people would spend forever explaining why. So one minute, don't explain afterwards over. Just give us the four. Uh uh in the spirit of fun but or or is yeah who are the four people you would put on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service and go okay uh well uh Kris Blume: Well honestly, it's not going to be famous people, if I'm if I'm going to be honest with you. No, absolutely. It would be a company officer that uh showed up every day, that that that did the work, that held his crew to account, that that did the thing. um was exceptional at their job uh and and made you want and and pro not not made you want but was proud of of being part of the team. Uh the second one um I can think of a name specifically, but it was the firefighter that never cut corners. It was it was the it was the guy that at 10 o'clock at night, I was, I'll never forget it, I was laying in bed and I heard a thumps outside my my my room. and i went out to check it out and the dude was doing you know uh a a crossfit workout because he hadn't got any the guy didn't cut corners like the guy was committed to the craft and and so is that guy Um, the third person would be the uh the leader that owned it. In in in spite of of how b and and I and and and and the reason I say that is is I've experienced that. Like it came at a cost Like you're gonna own something, you're gonna own it full value, you're not gonna make excuses, you're gonna say, I chose this, I made this decision, it was wrong. I'm gonna say wrong, it was wrong. Here's what I did and why I did it. So somebody that's willing to stand by uh their commitment to make that answer. Did I run out of time already?

Kris Blume: Man, that went quick. And how about I give you a third fourth one, right? So it's the guy that the guy that was willing to tell me the truth. You left that in the dirt. But I want to hear the fourth one. The guy that was willing to tell me the truth when it was when it hurt. And that's happened And and you know, and honestly, Corley, I think that what we do is in in the context of this question, we can kind of overcomplicate it. Um, you know, most of our in our lives, I believe, are shaped by less famous people. And more by the people that stood by us when it mattered I didn't give you any names. Corley: Phenomenal. Hey, great answers one through four. You unfortunately did not hit the time. No, I know. It's the first. Do you have names for each one of these? Kris Blume: All right, let's that let's here's the twist. Jesus Christ, Marcus Aurelius, Abraham Lincoln, and my dad. Corley: Woo Yeah, I didn't see that coming, so that's pretty that's pretty good. That's a nice twist. No, I I I I've I've uh I've never even looked at the question in that in that regard, like what is the roles of each of these people, although that is ultimately what I'm asking.

Kris Blume: So it's a bit of a Yeah and and that's kind of how I I I I sort of ask that was it's just like, man, I think it's I think it's less about, you know, it it it it's it's more about what people, you know That's where the the the job really lives. And you know this, Corley. You know, it's it's not in the big speeches, but it's been in it's in those everyday ex uh everyday experiential behaviors, the manifestation of their behaviors. Corley: It's not anything. I really like the burning. Jesus Christ, Marcus Aurelius. What was number three? Abraham Lincoln. Kris Blume: Abraham Lincoln and my father. Corley: Yeah. No, that's that is I I don't that there are rules for a reason and there are exceptions to the rules. That's a max points answer. for the full for the full ride. For the full ride we went to the case. Sorry Sam. No, it's they exist for a reason, but and you you You break them at your own peril if you value max points, but you got there. Kris Blume: I don't value I value authenticity. Corley: I like it. Heavy fire, searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES?

Kris Blume: Okay, so I thought about this one. I genuinely did. Um I love because of of reading book of search, work of search, the vernacular that you chose to use in that. Searchable space, not survivable space, searchable space. Um, but then the fire chief and the company officer and the battalion chief having responded to I've had three grabs in my career, one of which I was per I was I was I was the grab er, two others that I was party to. Um and then and then two that there were fatalities. And I was the I was the battalion chief. I was the instant commander of that. And so I I I can't answer that question in the context of all things being equal. equal. Sure. But I would say all things being equal meaning, I have a multi-company response. And I've taken into consideration rescue profile, time of day, occupancy, all of those things that I would as a company officer, and I'm answering this from the front right seat of a of a of an engine company. Or a truck company for that matter. I think the popular and sexy answer is VES. And I want to say that. But uh for me personally, my personal lived experience, having done search in advance of a hose line And gotten in discipline for it. And that doesn't bear much into this. I'm going to channel a little bit of Ray McCormick and give you the culture of extinguishment. And I'm taking the nozzle.

Corley: Taking the nozzle. Kris Blume: And and and it's not because VES is an aggressive. That is the real work. Um, but I'm imagining multi-company response. I'm imagining multi-units showing up on scene because I've experienced it both ways. And you know, that's the real work. That's the high consequence work. But the nozzle work, that's what changes the outcome for everybody. Um, you know, you if you if you're able to apply water in the right place at the right time, it changes the outcome for everybody. Whether it's anybody in that survivable space, searchable space. or the con uh the the the the crews coming behind you and you know uh search without water you're you're operating on borrowed time and and and honestly I think that you know firefighter rescue survey the thing that you have been supporting righteously through your publication um proves that out you know we're we're operating on borrowed time So it as long as I have that staffing and that coordination in place, but honestly, I'm taking the line. I'm gonna go find the fire. I'm gonna put that shit in, I'm gonna put it out and the we're gonna make it better for the crews that are coming behind us and make it more searchable and survivable for everybody on on the other side. Everybody involved

Corley: Phenomenal answer, phenomenal breakdown. Kris Blume: And I love I love any anybody's answer. It's it's it's right. Like I've I've been on both sides of that. And I and I and I and I've been on some bad outcomes. And I and I've you know I I've gone in search ahead of a hose line and never been hotter in my entire life and never been driven down to the floor. And I've had some incredible senior firefighters ahead of me that have done some stuff that you know I learned and tried to transmit. And that's how we were. That's how we rolled, right? I mean it's You can put things in SOPs and SOGs and this, that, and the other, but but ultimately it's that transmission. And dude, I'd love to tell you the the story of the three grabs, because I I I mean I thought that was normal. I thought that was just what we did. And then leaving a metro agency was like, you have a grab? Well, yeah, I mean that's that's the job. No, that's the job we train for. And in the absence, that's the job we train for, and we should be prepared for that. Every time we're leaving the house, that is the job that we're we're rolling to. And you know, just metro agencies get different levels of reps and sets on stuff. stuff and and that's not a point of pride. It really isn't. Like communities should not be proud that they're burning stuff and that victims need rescue. That's not a point of pride.

Corley: No, it's phenomenal. And that is a great discussion to have, either with Grant Schwabi and talking on grabs or on the scrap at some point, we'll break them down. So So I'm all I'm I'm I'm ready to do so. But uh man brother five for five or you that's your five questions for firefighters. Yeah, give give me what you want. The max points on number five for sure, and that officially puts 348, almost 350, 348 scraps in the books. Kris Blume, I have thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and I love uh your mindset, your mind frame and and and how it has evolved Through the different positions you've held and especially your current perspective. So I've I've enjoyed it and I can't wait to dig into it even more the next time because you're coming back. Uh but thank you for sharing your evening with us. If someone wants to get a hold of you, ask you more questions, reach out to you in some way, shape, or form, how do they go about doing that? Kris Blume: Uh Facebook, Instagram, Carry the Fire, uh I I I linked recently into in in into the thing that you shared. I'm I Dude, I'm a uh social media migrant. I'm not a social media native. Like I'm uh Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, uh, or or you know, uh K-R-I-S. bl at Gmail. And I I believe myself to be very responsive. I get a lot of people asking me One sentence questions that require three hour answers. And that's fine. Like, dude, hey, listen, I'm committed to our craft. I'm committed to our profession. And if I can impart any amount of wisdom that benefits you, your agency, your crews, your people. Dude, I I'm hit me up.

Corley: I love it. I absolutely love it, man. I love the three-hour answer part because it it is it is You know, you know. Yes, it you'll get a question, you're like, man, I want it, I I want to do right by this question, but you understand I there is so much that goes into this answer. Kris Blume: I get things on Messenger, right? And they're like, hey, how would you deal with this? And I'm like, holy shit. So when I'm on a I'm on a like a three-hour flight, I'm like Yeah. Here comes the dissertation. Like, dude, it it this is you've asked way more and you've provided not enough, so it needs it needs its its due do due call. Corley: No, I I feel that completely in my soul. All right, housekeeping. Go to patreon. com slash the vigilantees. If you're not a vigilante, you should be one. The Discord is amazing. And I it's it's like its own little private social media world of just like-minded firefighters where you can call, uh, ask questions, have phone calls, have voice chats. We get together and discuss stuff. There's forum boards. It's amazing. And the best part is the after party, which tonight the after party is live. In fact, it's probably going on. As soon as this is over, I'm heading down there.

Kris Blume: I just joined. I just joined Corley: Oh heck yeah. Heck yeah. See? All the cool kids are doing it. That's what I say. Kris Blume: And I'm getting uh I am stude. Perfect. Corley: Perfect. No, it is. It's amazing, man. If you're not a part of it, go be a part of it. Join the make sure you join the Discord because that's where all the value is at. It's so much fun. And with that being said. Coming up on the scrap, episode 349 next week. It is none other than the man, the myth, the legend, Brian Crush. He's coming on to talk about L the work he's done this year, researching grabs, follow-up his research he did. a few years ago and the differences in between and his new takeaways and i can't wait to dive into that conversation and then number 350 the man the myth the legend himself curt isa coming back once again to Uh see if we can break the internet yet one more time. So with all that being said, that's what's coming up. And of course, FDIC is right around the corner. Cannot wait to see you all who are going to be there. And I think that's it. That's enough. That's enough blabbering from me. Chris, dude, I love your approach to answering these questions. I love your approach to leadership. I cannot wait to dig into it some more. And I mean that sincerely. And we didn't even get to talk on tactics. tactical stuff and the function. This is all the nerdy shit. Yeah.

Kris Blume: Well yeah, I I mean are are we cut? Corley: Not yet. I don't know exactly what you're gonna say, so I'll do this. I'll say audience Uh well A, I just want to tell you thank you. And then the to the audience, I want to say you make the scrap magical each and every week. I was talking to Preston Lions actually today in the lobby at the Hilton and he was jokingly saying how, well, Corley, you know, he just Brings the guest on and then has the audience ask him a bunch of questions. It's like an easy button. And it truthfully, it really it as much as Preston was making a joke, it really is you guys make the scrap what it is because you ask the best questions Sometimes they're curveballs, sometimes they're hard and fast, and sometimes they're soft tosses, but you set the guest up for success, and I just have to stand here and uh yeah, just smile and look pretty, which is debatable. So all that being said, I I say all that to say thank you for showing up each and every week and asking the questions because you make the scrap magical. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tones stay silent unless it is burning. This job will never be safe, so stay smart out there.

Kris Blume: I got your hat on.